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Announcements :: Collateral Duties List

2010-07-29T17:54:58+00:00

H2O_Gypsy wrote at 29 Jul 2010 12:54 PM GMT: Does anyone have a comprehensive list of required command programs? Between SORM, Safety Manual, NAVOSH and a myriad of other umbrellas, there's plenty of programs to run.

I'm validating the current list at my shore command and I'm hoping to shortcut the process. Or...if a post already exists that I have missed, would someone direct me to it? Thanks.
_________________
He who will not risk, cannot win!

Announcements :: Collateral Duties List (reply)

2010-07-29T19:16:55+00:00

neaglefan wrote at 29 Jul 2010 02:16 PM GMT: found this site....it's a start:

http://www.navystorekeeper.com/collateralduties.html

COMMAND CAREER COUNSELOR

COMMAND SPONSOR COORDINATOR

COMMAND FINANCIAL COUNSELOR

VOLUNTEER INCOME TAX ASSISTANT

VOTING ASSISTANCE OFFICER

EDUCATIONAL SERVICES OFFICER

PASS LIAISON REPRESENTATIVE

OPNAVINST 1740.3A
SECNAVINST 1754.6
MILPERSMAN 1740-010

BUPERSINST 1430.16F
Navy College web site
DANTES web site

OPNAVINST 1000.23B

SPECIAL PROGRAM DUTIES
COMMAND SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIM INTERVENTION COORDINATOR (SAVI)

CASUALTY ASSISTANCE CALLS OFFICER (CACO)

COMMAND MANAGED EQUAL OPPORTUNITY COORDINATOR

COMMAND FITNESS LEADER

URINALYSIS PROGRAM COORDINATOR

DRUG/ALCOHOL PROGRAM ADVISOR (DAPA)

VICTIM & WITNESS ASSIST COORDINATOR

SUICIDE PREVENTION OFFICER
OPNAVINST 1752.1

Navy CACO Handbook - NAVPERS 15607D
Navy CACO Guide
Casualties & Survivor's Benefits (MILPERSMAN)
Survivor's Assistance Guide

OPNAVINST 5354.1E
Navy Equal Opportunity Office
Equal Opportunity Assistants (MILPERSMAN)

OPNAVINST 6110.1H
PRIMS - Main Site
Links, Documents, Videos & Instructions
NAVADMIN 011/07
Command Fitness Leader Course

OPNAVINST 5350.4C
DOD Drug Test Program
Coordinator Course Now Online At Navy E-Learning

OPNAVINST 5350.7
Navy Leader's Guide
Training Presentation

SECNAVINST 5800.11
DoD Directive 1030.01
Victim & Witness Assistance Council

NPC Suicide Prevention Program
Suicide Instructions and MILPERSMAN
Leader's Guide for Sailors in Distress
OTHER PROGRAM COORDINATOR DUTIES
DISASTER PREPAREDNESS COORDINATOR

COMMUNITY SERVICE PROGRAM COORDINATOR

TRAINING COORDINATOR

BLOOD DONOR COORDINATOR

COMBINED FEDERAL CAMPAIGN COORDINATOR

NAVY/MARINE CORP RELIEF COORDINATOR

MWR FUND ADMINISTRATOR

COMMAND EVALUATION & AUDIT PROGRAM COORDINATOR

OPNAVINST 3440.16C
Navy Disaster Preparedness Guide
FEMA Web Site

OPNAVINST 5350.6B
BUPERSINST 1650.12D
MWR Community Service Program

OPNAVINST 1500.22E
Govt Travel Card Program
Defense Travel System

OPNAVINST 6530.2C
OPNAVINST 6530.4A

SECNAVINST 5340.2
CFC Web Site

SECNAVINST 5340.7
NMCRS Web Site

BUPERSINST 1710.11C
OPNAVINST 1700.7D

OPNAVINST 5000.52A
BUPERSINST 5000.26B

PROGRAM ADVISOR / MANAGER DUTIES
ENERGY CONSERVATION MANAGER

FRAUD, WASTE & ABUSE ADVISOR

HAZARDOUS MATERIAL MANAGER

MILCAP PROGRAM ADVISOR

REC/HOME SAFETY PROGRAM MGR

FIRE MARSHAL

SAFETY OFFICER/TRAFFIC SAFETY
OPNAVINST 5090.1B
DON Energy Awareness site

SECNAVINST 5370.5A
SECNAVINST 5430.92A

CHRIMP MANUAL P-722
OPNAVINST 5100.23F
OPNAVINST 5090.1B
Naval Safety Center Information

OPNAVINST 1650.8C

OPNAVINST 5100.25A

OPNAVINST 11320.23F

OPNAVINST 5100.12G
OPNAVINST 5100.23F

Announcements :: Collateral Duties List (reply)

2010-07-29T19:19:45+00:00

Beachbum wrote at 29 Jul 2010 02:19 PM GMT: I didn't see:
Command Individual Augmentation Coordinator
_________________
Stanley: This here is a �run-out-the-clock� situation.

Announcements :: Collateral Duties List (reply)

2010-07-29T20:34:20+00:00

H2O_Gypsy wrote at 29 Jul 2010 03:34 PM GMT: neaglefan,

That's a fantastic kick off. Thanks.
_________________
He who will not risk, cannot win!

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU?

2010-07-29T00:04:27+00:00

NewtonSWO wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:04 PM GMT: I am reporting to a new command soon and I was told to report in NWU ...Now I may be a bit old school, but doesn't this seem a bit odd? I'm not saying I should sport chokers with Full Medals, but DIGICAMMIES, really?

What is prescribed these days? I would expect Summer Whites, maybe Service Khaki, but NWU? I know that it's the uniform normally worn by staff at that command, but is there any formality associated with reporting for duty anymore? Of course, having a published "Uniform of the Day" would be helpful, but hey, just a little advice from Bobland will have to do at this point...
_________________
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity!

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T00:18:16+00:00

Philthethrill wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:18 PM GMT: Dare I ask what type of command this is?
_________________
"The sailor does not pray for wind, he learns to sail." - Gustaf Lindborg

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T00:21:25+00:00

lbrty9 wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:21 PM GMT: What is prescribed? Sounds like you been told what is prescribed. What's the issue?
_________________
God alone decides the contest; but we must put our shoulders to the wheel.

Admiral D. G. Farragut.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T00:22:02+00:00

YokoSWO wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:22 PM GMT: I'm checking into SWOS for 6 weeks of TAD staff work until I head to Dahlgren and DH School, I was told I could check into SWOS (at least for the TAD check in) in NWU. Doesn't strike me as too odd here, however I think when checking into a ship, I'll show up in Whites / Blues.
_________________
Nothing clever to say.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T00:22:40+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:22 PM GMT: SWOs report to SWO commands in whites/SDB. Aviators report to aviation commands in flightsuits.

Mixed command? Whatever it is they told you to report in.

If SWOS told you to report in NWU then do it. Maybe they have some sort of picnic planned. Or maybe you are going to move boxes.
_________________
A new life awaits you in the Off-CONUS colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure, new climate, recreational facilities, absolutely free. Lets go to the Colonies! This announcement brought to you by KBR.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T00:24:34+00:00

CrazyIvan wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:24 PM GMT: It's just like a job interview. Err on the side of being overdressed and you cannot go wrong!

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T00:26:12+00:00

ASL wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:26 PM GMT: If that's what they told you, then that's what they told you...

Honestly, I didn't show up to either of my ships in a uniform of any sort. They were both FDNF ships. Just in and showed up with the person who met me at the airport (I guess I was lucky!). They took me straight to the ship to check in at the QD in civvies and then had me come back the next work day in a working uniform.

I was always taught to show up in a dress uniform at NROTC, but now I honestly don't see the point. What benefit does checking in with a dress uniform do, especially if you're apparently not important enough for the CO to see on the day you check in? In one case I actually NEVER got a check in with the CO. Actually... Now that I think of it, I didn�t ever check in with the CO either time, but the 2nd time is was because the CO got relieved a month after I showed up. Still, a month plus to see the CO, even of a carrier?

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T00:52:00+00:00

SWO92 wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:52 PM GMT: I was taught that too. In fact, I have shown up in Summer Whites or SDBs at every command and it was odd that I received some weird looks (especially when checking in Summer Whites on trhe CVN).

Oh well, I thought it was appropriate. Although, if told beforehand to check in some other uniform (i.e. Khaki or even NWU) I would do that....
_________________
And now I know for sure, I just added two more guys to my wolf pack. Four of us wolves, running around the desert together, in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T01:06:04+00:00

Maindeck wrote at 28 Jul 2010 08:06 PM GMT: SWOS Uniform of the Day is NWU. Only some of the PCO/PXOs still wear Service khaki to class. All instructors are in NWU. SDB is always an appropriate uniform to checkin with; but due to continued reduction of formality these days, no one really cares.
_________________
It's a hard SWOLIFE, for life.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T01:35:39+00:00

SWOhioan wrote at 28 Jul 2010 08:35 PM GMT:

Maindeck wrote:

SWOS Uniform of the Day is NWU. Only some of the PCO/PXOs still wear Service khaki to class. All instructors are in NWU. SDB is always an appropriate uniform to checkin with; but due to continued reduction of formality these days, no one really cares.

+1

I checked in at the Pentagon in summer whites and people looked at me lie I had a third eye...

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T01:41:59+00:00

swoness2010 wrote at 28 Jul 2010 08:41 PM GMT: I am at SWOS now going through DH School, either NWUs or Khakies are fine. Here we wear either depending on your preference.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T05:58:26+00:00

Pearly wrote at 29 Jul 2010 12:58 AM GMT:

CrazyIvan wrote:

It's just like a job interview. Err on the side of being overdressed and you cannot go wrong!

+1

*Edited to change to a smaller picture. Hopefully it has teh same effect...
_________________
"Felix quem fauciant alienia pericula cautum (Fortune is he whom mistakes of others make wary)"-Benjamin Franklin

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T06:03:59+00:00

SWO Bubba wrote at 29 Jul 2010 01:03 AM GMT:

SWOhioan wrote:

Maindeck wrote:

+1

I checked in at the Pentagon in summer whites and people looked at me lie I had a third eye...

+1 - only the die hard traditionalists really care. Everyone else just cares about you getting to work as soon as possible.
_________________
"As the son of a son of sailor, I went down to the sea for adventure...Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, and I learned much from both of their styles."

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T13:30:48+00:00

bubblehead wrote at 29 Jul 2010 08:30 AM GMT:

SWOhioan wrote:

I checked in at the Pentagon in summer whites and people looked at me lie I had a third eye...

If you think that is bad, try wearing a Khaki Windbreaker with a Combination Cover. I had an O-6 tell me that wearing a Khaki Windbreaker was like wearing Spandex to the gym

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T13:44:30+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 29 Jul 2010 08:44 AM GMT:

bubblehead wrote:

If you think that is bad, try wearing a Khaki Windbreaker with a Combination Cover. I had an O-6 tell me that wearing a Khaki Windbreaker was like wearing Spandex to the gym

Wow- I'd hate to look into that dude's wardrobe.

I may be too old fashioned for the New Navy, but I still report into permanent duty stations wearing a service dress uniform. For temporary duty stations, unless I really have some reason to try to impress them, I wear the uniform of the day. In this case, I'd recommend wearing what they told you to wear, and, UNODIR, check into your ship in SDB/SDW.

Back in SWOSDOC (the old 6-monther) my class checked in right after brown shoes were authorized for all khakis. Most of us wore black because it was what we were issued at NROTC/OCS/USNA, but three aviation wash-outs showed up an hour late in leather jackets and brown shoes. The instructor registered his displeasure... it was tense in the auditorium, but in hidsight, it was our first lesson in SWO Thermodynamics.
_________________
The impossible can become possible, if you're awesome. -"Rhino"

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T14:31:28+00:00

Angryman wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:31 AM GMT:

Bigmouth wrote:

In this case, I'd recommend wearing what they told you to wear, and, UNODIR, check into your ship in SDB/SDW.

SDW? You sure you'd do chokers instead of summer whites?

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T14:38:45+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:38 AM GMT:

Angryman wrote:

Bigmouth wrote:

In this case, I'd recommend wearing what they told you to wear, and, UNODIR, check into your ship in SDB/SDW.

SDW? You sure you'd do chokers instead of summer whites?

I'm weird, I know. In my mind, if I would wear service dress in the winter, I should wear it in the summer, too. It's purely a personal thing. I don't believe that anyone could think ill of someone for reporting in wearing Summer White, it's just not the way my twisted mind works. If the SDKs are affordable (assuming TFU hasn't screwed that up somehow), I may wear them.
_________________
The impossible can become possible, if you're awesome. -"Rhino"

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T14:50:44+00:00

Philthethrill wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:50 AM GMT:

bubblehead wrote:

SWOhioan wrote:

I checked in at the Pentagon in summer whites and people looked at me lie I had a third eye...

If you think that is bad, try wearing a Khaki Windbreaker with a Combination Cover. I had an O-6 tell me that wearing a Khaki Windbreaker was like wearing Spandex to the gym

Hmm... That's what I wear here every Tuesday... I simply hate the Ike jacket and the garrison cover.
_________________
"The sailor does not pray for wind, he learns to sail." - Gustaf Lindborg

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T14:52:58+00:00

Tater wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:52 AM GMT:

CrazyIvan wrote:

It's just like a job interview. Err on the side of being overdressed and you cannot go wrong!

Not necessarily. A friend had an interview with Motley Fool. He was told, "We're a very casual place, no need for a suit and tie or anything like that." He had an earlier interview too, so he just wore a suit for the day. He said the Motley Fool folks definitely seemed put off by his attire (and he didn't get an offer from them).
_________________
"The bureaucracy is a circle from which one cannot escape." - Karl Marx

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T15:24:59+00:00

CrazyIvan wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:24 AM GMT: Are you comparing Motley Fool to the United States Navy?

Dress up when reporting and it will be noticed by your CO/XO and appreciated. Dressing up is a sign of respect.

It's similar to the question whether to send your new CO/XO a letteror not. Those who don't are remembered...

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T15:32:04+00:00

Tater wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:32 AM GMT:

CrazyIvan wrote:

Are you comparing Motley Fool to the United States Navy?

You were the one who made the analogy that "it's just like a job interview." Using a personal anecdote, I was pointing out that that analogy was weak. Sorry to sort-of thread-jack, but when you introduce "job interviews" into a thread, it sort of opens it up.
_________________
"The bureaucracy is a circle from which one cannot escape." - Karl Marx

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T15:37:20+00:00

CrazyIvan wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:37 AM GMT: Tater,
You're right.
It's sad for me to see the current slobbery in general dress code in the USA. Goes with the obesity/overweight epidemic I suppose.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T15:45:47+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:45 AM GMT: Instead of Job interview, how about "First Date"? I have occasionally heard the CO and XO called Mom and Dad... Seems like you'd want to make a good first impression for them.

Regardless, the advantage to weraing a service or service dress uniform vice a working uniform is that it gives you the chance to show off you personal pride, military bearing, and a quick resume' pinned to your chest. It sort of sums you up as a person for that same all-important first impression. Whatever you wear, wear it right:
One new guy reported on wearing whites with collar brass. And shoulderboards.

One new guy (Ship's Surgeon) reported on wearing his MEDSWO pin upside-down... on his coveralls.

Saw a guy wearing black shoes, khaki pants, leather flight jacket, and black garrison cap. Shirt unknown.

Often saw guys who mismatched CNT khaki items with cotton ones.

...and there's the folks who stop at the exchange to pick up some ribbons on the way in, like the A-school student wearing the Vietnam Campaign medal in 2003.
_________________
The impossible can become possible, if you're awesome. -"Rhino"

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T15:50:43+00:00

NavyOrdie wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:50 AM GMT:

CrazyIvan wrote:

It's similar to the question whether to send your new CO/XO a letteror not. Those who don't are remembered...

Ivan, could you expand on that for me? Mebbe it's because I've been too low on the totem pole to come across this level of etiquette, but crossing over into the 'O' ( I gagged thinking of the old Air Farce comercials...) I wouldn't wanna start off on the wrong foot when I report to my first command. Thanks.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T15:51:44+00:00

Amish wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:51 AM GMT:

Philthethrill wrote:

bubblehead wrote:

SWOhioan wrote:

I checked in at the Pentagon in summer whites and people looked at me lie I had a third eye...

If you think that is bad, try wearing a Khaki Windbreaker with a Combination Cover. I had an O-6 tell me that wearing a Khaki Windbreaker was like wearing Spandex to the gym

Hmm... That's what I wear here every Tuesday... I simply hate the Ike jacket and the garrison cover.

So you're the guy who's been wearing the combo cover with spandex at the gym...

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T16:19:11+00:00

Philthethrill wrote at 29 Jul 2010 11:19 AM GMT:

Amish wrote:

Philthethrill wrote:

bubblehead wrote:

SWOhioan wrote:

I checked in at the Pentagon in summer whites and people looked at me lie I had a third eye...

If you think that is bad, try wearing a Khaki Windbreaker with a Combination Cover. I had an O-6 tell me that wearing a Khaki Windbreaker was like wearing Spandex to the gym

Hmm... That's what I wear here every Tuesday... I simply hate the Ike jacket and the garrison cover.

So you're the guy who's been wearing the combo cover with spandex at the gym...

Dammit... I should have seen that one coming...
_________________
"The sailor does not pray for wind, he learns to sail." - Gustaf Lindborg

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-29T16:19:56+00:00

CrazyIvan wrote at 29 Jul 2010 11:19 AM GMT: NavyOrdie,
Take a look at these sites:

http://www.sailorbob.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6198
Sample letter to CO

http://www.sailorbob.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4966
Letter to Firstship CO

http://www.sailorbob.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5167
Need help finding the email to No 1 and No 2

http://www.sailorbob.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2204
Letter to a New Command

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-30T01:30:34+00:00

Eeyore2 wrote at 29 Jul 2010 08:30 PM GMT: I guess times really have changed. Back in the 1990's I showed up for the first day of Department Head school in winter blues and was sent home to change into SDB's. I had reported in to the command the previous week in my SDB's so I assumed I had checked that block.
_________________
"Oh Bart, you say that now because you're young. When you get older you'll just think it."
--Homer Simpson

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-30T02:31:11+00:00

ASL wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:31 PM GMT:

CrazyIvan wrote:

Dress up when reporting and it will be noticed by your CO/XO and appreciated. Dressing up is a sign of respect.

If they even deign to see you at all...

I guess I'd have more respect for Navy reporting etiquette if any of my CO's actually gave a damn about receiving new check-ins promptly. How many CO's actually see people the same day they report?

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-30T02:51:29+00:00

Tincan wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:51 PM GMT:

ASL wrote:

CrazyIvan wrote:

Dress up when reporting and it will be noticed by your CO/XO and appreciated. Dressing up is a sign of respect.

Ahhhh....preemptive re-disrespect. Interesting strategy. Let us know how that one works out for you.
_________________
Tincan

"Morons. I've got morons on my team."
--Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-30T02:52:43+00:00

Pirate Dave wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:52 PM GMT:

ASL wrote:

CrazyIvan wrote:

Dress up when reporting and it will be noticed by your CO/XO and appreciated. Dressing up is a sign of respect.

Every one I've had - as a rule.
_________________
Pirate Dave

Let our deck clear for action, our guns be prepared;
Be the boarding-axe sharpened, the scimetar bared.
--- from "Pirate's Song" as found in [i:bbc4c84078]The Pirate's Own Book[/i:bbc4c84078]

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-30T03:35:58+00:00

MIDN Happy Meal wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:35 PM GMT:

ASL wrote:

CrazyIvan wrote:

Dress up when reporting and it will be noticed by your CO/XO and appreciated. Dressing up is a sign of respect.

In my limited experience (i.e., both times) it was a brief intro the day of check-in, and a longer sit-down interview within 48 hours. Every CO I've served with had a policy of meeting every new check-in -- officer or enlisted -- within 48 hours of reporting, and were usually very good about meeting that standard.

Professional :: Uniform for Checking In Is...NWU? (reply)

2010-07-30T03:39:22+00:00

Dirsuper wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:39 PM GMT:

Tincan wrote:

preemptive re-disrespect.

I'm gonna steal that one!
_________________
"Charlie don't surf!"

-Lieutenant Colonel Kilgore

Professional :: Lasers and the Royal Navy

2010-07-30T02:51:07+00:00

Pirate Dave wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:51 PM GMT:

Quote:

The Ministry of Defence signed a contract for the Raytheon surface-to-air laser...

Interesting piece about weapons development across the pond. Worth taking a look at.

(I couldn't get the link to work right, so you'll have to copy and paste into browser.)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/we've-got-lasers-now%2c-says-navy-201007202923

_________________
Pirate Dave

Let our deck clear for action, our guns be prepared;
Be the boarding-axe sharpened, the scimetar bared.
--- from "Pirate's Song" as found in [i:bbc4c84078]The Pirate's Own Book[/i:bbc4c84078]

Professional :: Missing Bonus

2010-07-29T08:26:03+00:00

War Eagle wrote at 29 Jul 2010 03:26 AM GMT: So, I thought I should be getting an installment of the SWOCS bonus in July and hadn't seen it. I called the BuPers folk and asked about it.

Ms. Marilee Stroman (DSN 882-3888 Commercial (901)874-3888) advised me that I was the 18th person who had this problem in July. She confirmed that I should have been paid and said they were having issues with DFAS.

Just wanted to pass it along since she also said that they have no way of knowing you haven't been paid (and thus start correcting it) unless you call her.

Professional :: Missing Bonus (reply)

2010-07-29T10:07:37+00:00

Try-Dent wrote at 29 Jul 2010 05:07 AM GMT: Hey, I just noticed the same thing yesterday and showed my YN1 my LES today. For some reason $1,250 was added and then like $950 was in the subtraction column in Jun. For July it was $2500 added but two separate $950 (or so) subtractions.

I got too busy to go over to PSD and try to figure out why they were giving me a bonus and then taking most of it away...

Sure... blame DFAS... I wish I could get away with that everytime something gets hosed.

Professional :: Missing Bonus (reply)

2010-07-29T12:09:34+00:00

skipather wrote at 29 Jul 2010 07:09 AM GMT:

Try-Dent wrote:

I got too busy to go over to PSD and try to figure out why they were giving me a bonus and then taking most of it away...

gotta pay for the bailout and stimulus somehow...
_________________
"Once you go black-shoe you never go back!"
-My Fiancee' (An MH-60S Pilot)

Professional :: Missing Bonus (reply)

2010-07-29T12:49:43+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 29 Jul 2010 07:49 AM GMT: My first payment is due in the next couple of days... I was warned by people a year or so senior to me that there are often problems with payment, so I contacted Ms. Stromann a few weeks ago, and found that my application had disappeared altogether. She was very nice about the whole thing, and just asked that I re-send it, and assures me there will be no problem. I don't know if the system will work or not, but at least she's friendly about it.
_________________
The impossible can become possible, if you're awesome. -"Rhino"

Professional :: Missing Bonus (reply)

2010-07-29T14:31:58+00:00

War Eagle wrote at 29 Jul 2010 09:31 AM GMT:

Bigmouth wrote:

...I contacted Ms. Stromann...I don't know if the system will work or not, but at least she's friendly about it.

Professional :: Missing Bonus (reply)

2010-07-29T20:53:00+00:00

Elvis is King wrote at 29 Jul 2010 03:53 PM GMT: Happend to me this year, 2nd payment due in May, did not receive until July, only a couple months late, not too shabby for a top 50 employer...

Guess I shouldn't complain, free money and all.

Vr Elvis
_________________
Thank you, thank you very much!

Professional :: Missing Bonus (reply)

2010-07-29T21:00:37+00:00

Jeff Heames wrote at 29 Jul 2010 04:00 PM GMT: There was a hang-up at DFAS regarding future bonus payments for JUL (payments beyond the first installment). Increased call volume to Ms. Stroman triggered a re-confirmation of JUL payments and action to resolve the future payments schedule with DFAS (Thanks, Marilee!). For those of you expecting bonus payments, we should be back on track.

Thanks for the calls to alert us to the issue. As always, please contact Ms. Marilee Stroman at (901)874-3888 (DSN 882-3888) if you have bonus payment issues or questions.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Professional :: Missing Bonus (reply)

2010-07-29T23:15:35+00:00

lbrty9 wrote at 29 Jul 2010 06:15 PM GMT: Well, all this ship maintenance ain't gonna pay for itself!!!
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Admiral D. G. Farragut.

Professional :: Officer Promotion Question

2010-07-28T21:19:23+00:00

Call4Fire wrote at 28 Jul 2010 04:19 PM GMT: Just a quick question regarding officer promotion. My name is on the promotion list for August 1st, but I am in the midst of a PCS and my schools command doesn't deal with many officer promotions. Since my name is on the list, can I just start wearing my oak leaves on the date of effective rank? I would prefer a ceremony, but am hesitant to task a training command and they are strangers to me anyway, not like getting promoted with all my shipmates around. Are there any admin requirements that I should follow up on?

Thanks!!
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The SWO business is uglier than most things. It is normally perceived as some kind of cruel and shallow money trench through the heart of the Navy, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs, for no good reason.

Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-28T21:31:41+00:00

snarlen wrote at 28 Jul 2010 04:31 PM GMT: No. You still need the appointment letter. Your gaining command will take care of the paperwork and , hopefully, your CO will promote you the day you arrive. Once PSD gets the paperwork from your gaining command they will get your pay updated and you can get a new ID card.

Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-28T22:18:39+00:00

MIDN Happy Meal wrote at 28 Jul 2010 05:18 PM GMT: Is there a reason the school-house or servicing PSD can't do the appointment letter? You can always have the formal ceremony later if you want it, but before you can wear the oakleaves (legally) you have to sign the appointment letter. I just have a hard time believing there isn't someone at your training command who can fill in your name, SSN, and DOR onto a piece of paper for you and the school CO to sign...

Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-28T22:44:42+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 28 Jul 2010 05:44 PM GMT: Go to the training commands XO and CO. They should like having the chance to promote someone (probably doesnt happen that often). I am sure they can have one of their guys bang out the paperwork.

I would recommend not waiting until you show up to your gaining command. For the following reasons:

1. Rank matters and if you show up as the new rank, you will always have been CDR X instead of that guy who just got promoted.

2. Your future shipmates will no doubt mean something to you. But that something that builds over time. When you first meet them, they are only slightly above the stranger level.

3. You wont have to do the uniform stripe/NWU oakleave swap out in a hurry. You could theoritically put the new stuff on half of your uniforms but that just sounds like a pain.
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Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-28T23:29:32+00:00

Call4Fire wrote at 28 Jul 2010 06:29 PM GMT: Thanks for all the replies, will work with the front office tomorrow to get the appointment letter knocked out.
_________________
The SWO business is uglier than most things. It is normally perceived as some kind of cruel and shallow money trench through the heart of the Navy, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs, for no good reason.

Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-29T00:47:29+00:00

SWO92 wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:47 PM GMT: We had a similiar situation at our command for an officer in transit promoting to O-4 on July 1st. We filled out the paperwork and signed the promotion letter for him before he arrived. E-mail and scanning a .pdf file are a great thing.

FYI, you are considered, by default, to have accepted the promotion (unless you decline it).

From the NAVADMIN:
2. IF A SELECTED OFFICER DOES NOT DECLINE HIS OR HER PROMOTION IN WRITING PRIOR TO HIS OR HER PROJECTED DATE OF RANK (NOTED ABOVE IN PARAGRAPH 1), THAT OFFICER IS CONSIDERED TO HAVE ACCEPTED THE PROMOTION ON THE DATE INDICATED. AN OFFICER WHO CHOOSES TO DECLINE HIS OR HER PROMOTION MUST SUBMIT THE DECLINATION IN WRITING TO COMNAVPERSCOM (PERS-831), PRIOR TO THE EFFECTIVE DATE INDICATED ABOVE.

You will automatically get paid as an O-4 beginning 1 Aug. The paperwork is still required, but the pay will still happen.

If your gaining command won't do the paperwork - any PSD can do this. Your name is on the NAVADMIN so you are good to go.
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Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-29T06:44:41+00:00

SWO Bubba wrote at 29 Jul 2010 01:44 AM GMT: SWO92 is correct. All the BUPERS systems and DFAS will automatically promote you on 1 August. Minor point of clarification - you won't see the pay until the mid-Month pay check.
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Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-29T12:17:07+00:00

neaglefan wrote at 29 Jul 2010 07:17 AM GMT: Congratulations on your promotion. Just ask the training command to prepare a NAVPERS 1421/7 (Rev. 10-99). It is unadvisable to just begin wearing new rank without [at least] this form being processed.

IN REPLY REFER TO

From: Commanding Officer, Joint Enabling Capabilities Command, ��.
To: ENS John A. Smith, 124-56-7890/1635

Subj: DELIVERY OF TEMPORARY/PERMANENT APPOINTMENT

Ref: (a) NAVADMIN 0170/97
(b) 10 USC 5902
(c) SECNAVINST 1811.3 (Series)

1. Your temporary/permanent appointment to Commander with the date of rank and effective date of ________ promulgated by reference (a) pursuant to the provisions of reference (b) is hereby delivered.

2. You will indicate by endorsement hereon whether you accept or decline this appointment.

SIGNATURE

FIRST ENDORSEMENT Date:

From: ENS John A. Smith, 124-56-7890/1635
To: Commander, Navy Personnel Command (PERS-801)
Via: Commanding Officer, Naval Reserve COM7THFLT Det 111, Fort Worth, TX

1. I 1 accept 0 decline the temporary/permanent appointment authorized by reference (a).

2. I certify that I understand the provisions of reference (c).

3. VOLUNTARY OATH

I, John A. Smith, do solemnly reaffirm that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will continue to bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and the Country whose course it directs, and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation. So help me God.

SIGNATURE

SECOND ENDORSEMENT Date:

From: Commanding Officer, Naval Reserve COM7THFLT Det 111, Fort Worth, TX
To: Commander, Navy Personnel Command (PERS-801)

1. Forwarded.

SIGNATURE

Forward original to CNPC (below); one copy to Appointee; one copy to Field Officer Record; and two copies to Disbursing Officer

Commander, Navy Personnel Command (PERS-801)
5720 Integrity Drive
Millington, TN 38055-8010

NAVPERS 1421/7 (Rev. 10-99)

Professional :: Officer Promotion Question (reply)

2010-07-29T15:13:48+00:00

samster wrote at 29 Jul 2010 10:13 AM GMT: For others in similar situations: Frocking may be authorized! Take a look at SECNAVINST 1420.2, 17 July 2007 for specifics. Saw it done on one of my previous ships in which an O-5 was frocked to O-6 on the day he pcs'd from the ship because he was transferring to an O-6 billet.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation

2010-07-27T12:44:49+00:00

Rum Runner wrote at 27 Jul 2010 07:44 AM GMT: CAPT John Cordle (my personal hero) and SAN JACINTO have come up with something here. I wish I was heading out to sea to try it out.

Quote:

MSGID/GENADMIN,USMTF,2008/USS SAN JACINTO//

SUBJ/SAN JACINTO INNOVATIVE WATCH ROTATION FOCUSES ON SAFETY /AND
TRAINING//

REF/A/MSGID:GENADMIN/COMNAVSURFOR/YMD:20040820/1516Z//

REF/B/MSGID:DOC/CNSF/YMD:20040701//

NARR/REF A IS SURFORTRAMAN 2009 YELLOW E SHIP SAFETY EXCELLENCE AWARD
UPDATE. REF B IS CNSFINST 3502.1D CH-1 (SURFORTRAMAN).// POC/MATTES,
BENJAMIN/LT/UNIT:USS SAN JACINTO/NAME:NAV /TEL:757-445-6226//
GENTEXT/REMARKS/1. IAW REFS A AND B, THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE, INNOVATIVE
WATCH ROTATION FOCUSES ON SAFETY AND TRAINING, IS PROVIDED FOR CY 2010.

2. COMMAND WIDE SUPPORT HAS ENSURED SAFETY PROGRAMS AND ORM ARE
IMPLEMENTED AT ALL LEVELS OF OPERATIONS, HELPING TO PROVIDE A SAFE
WORKING ENVIRONMENT. SJA'S SUCCESS THROUGHOUT THE PREVIOUS CALENDAR
YEAR, INCLUDING AN INSURV, A FULL TRAINING CYCLE, AND DEPLOYMENT, CAN BE
DIRECTLY LINKED TO CONTINUING SUPPORT FROM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. THE
COMMAND MAKES SAFETY A TOP PRIORITY AND LEADERSCONSTANTLY STRESS THAT NO
EVOLUTION IS ROUTINE, KEEPING THE CREW FOCUSED AND PREVENTING
COMPLACENCY.
ORM IS CONSIDERED FOR EVERY EVOLUTION. THE LEADERSHIP SETS THE STANDARD
BY CONTINUALLY EVALUATING ORM FOR ALL ASPECTS OF SHIPBOARD OPERATIONS,
WHICH HAS FOSTERED A PROACTIVE ENVIRONMENT AND PREVENTED MISHAPS. SJA
HAS CONDUCTED FOUR SAFETY STANDOWNS THIS YEAR IN ORDER TO MAXIMIZE
READINESS, MINIMIZE RISK, AND ENSURE MISSION ACCOMPLISHMENT. TOPICS
INCLUDED HOLIDAY SAFETY, ELECTRICAL SAFETY, TRAFFIC/MOTORCYCLE SAFETY,
AND NAVIGATION AND WATCHSTANDING PRACTICES.

3. THIS ARTICLE WILL FOCUS ON A SEA CHANGE IN WATCHSTANDING AND THE
BENEFITS OF A NEW WATCH ROTATION. THE PURPOSE OF THIS ARTICLE IS TO
INFORM OTHER SHIPS WAYS TO BATTLE FATIGUE AND TO OPTIMIZE TRAINING AND
SAFETY WHILE UNDERWAY. WITH THE INCREASED OPERATIONAL TEMPO THAT NAVY
SHIPS ENCOUNTER ON DEPLOYMENT AND THE MANY DUTIES THAT OUR OFFICERS,
CHIEFS, AND ENLISTED CARRY THESE DAYS DUE TO REDUCED MANNING, THERE HAVE
BEEN INSTANCES IN WHICH FATIGUE HAS BEEN A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR QQQQ THOSE
ON WATCH DURING DEPLOYMENTS. THE MANTRA OF "SUCKING IT UP BECAUSE IT IS
THE SWO WAY," IS THE WRONG WAY TO DRIVE OUR SHIPS. THE COST OF WHAT
COULD HAPPEN OUTWEIGHS THE RISKS.
MOST SHIPS OPERATE ON A WATCH SCHEDULE OF "5 AND DIMES" (5 HOURS ON AND
10 HOURS OFF) OR "4 SECTION 5 HOURS" (5 HOURS ON AND 15 OFF). BOTH
WATCH ROTATIONS POSSESS GREATER RISK DUE TO LONG PERIODS REQUIRING
ALERTNESS AND CONTINUAL ROTATING AROUND THE CLOCK WATCH. AT BEST, MAYBE
HALF THE CREW IS FULLY ALERT. IN THIS DAY AND ENVIRONMENT, SHIPS NEED
TO HAVE MAXIMUM CREW ALERTNESS. THE AVIATION COMMUNITY HAS LONG
EMBRACED THE CONCEPT OF "CREW REST" AND "HUMAN FACTORS" TO ENCOURAGE
MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE IN A DEMANDING ENVIRONMENT.
DURING A RECENT DEPLOYMENT, USS SAN JACINTO ADOPTED MANY OF THESE IDEAS
IN CREATING A NEW KIND OF WATCH ROTATION.

4. SAN JACINTO ADOPTED A MODIFIED WATCH BILL THAT WAS RECOMMENDED DURING
A RECENT BRIDGE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COURSE AND AFTER ONE MONTH IN
PRACTICE, DECIDED TO ADOPT IT FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE DEPLOYMENT. IT
ENTAILS A 4-SECTION WATCH WITH EACH SECTION STANDINGTWO 3-HOUR WATCHES
WITH A 9-HOUR BREAK BETWEEN THEM. THE ROTATION LOOKS LIKE THIS (OFFSETS
INTENTIONAL):
SECTION 1: 00-03 12-15
SECTION 2: 03-06 15-18
SECTION 3: 06-09 18-21
SECTION 4: 09-12 21-00
THE PRIMARY EFFECT IS THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH A CIRCADIAN RHYTHM BY
STANDING THE SAME WATCH AND WORKING THE SAME HOURS EVERY DAY. I HAVE
OBSERVED THAT THE WATCH STANDERS ARE MUCH MORE ALERT SINCE MAKING THE
CHANGE. THE WATCH ROTATES EVERY TWO WEEKS ON A SUNDAY TO MINIMIZE
ACCLIMATION TIME AND TO PREVENT STAGNATION OF THE SAME ROUTINE EVERY
DAY. CHANGES TO THE DAILY ROUTINE INCLUDE LATE SLEEPERS/EARLY TAPS FOR
THOSE ON THE EARLY MORNING WATCHES (00-03,03-06) AND FOCUSING MAJOR
EVOLUTIONS, MEETINGS AND DRILLS BETWEEN 0900 -1500.
SECONDARY EFFECTS HAVE INCLUDED:
- INCREASED TIME FOR PT.
- OFF-WATCH STUDY FOR WATCH, SWO, AND ESWS QUALIFICATIONS.
- NORMAL ADMINISTRATION DUTIES.
- BETTER PREDICTABILITY OF AN INDIVIDUAL'S DAILY ROUTINE.
- WATCHSTANDERS ARE ALSO ABLE TO AVERAGE 6 HOURS OF SLEEP
VICE THE 3-4 HOURS OF SLEEP FROM OTHER WATCH ROTATIONS.
- WATCH TEAMS ARE CONSISTENT, ALLOWING TRUE "COMBAT TEAMS"
TO FORM AND TRAIN TOGETHER. FROM THE BRIDGE TO CIC TO
THE ENGINEERING PLANT, THE SAME WATCHSTANDERS STAND THE
SAME WATCH TOGETHER TWICE EACH DAY, ALLOWING THEM TO
LEVERAGE STRENGTHS AND MITIGATE WEAKNESSES, AND TO EVENLY
SHARE EXPERIENCE DURING PERIODS OF HIGH OPTEMPO.
- DEPTH ON THE 4-SECTION WATCH BILL ALSO ALLOWS FLEXIBILITY
TO ROTATE BETWEEN THE BRIDGE AND CIC OR TO SUPPORT
SPECIAL EVOLUTIONS LIKE VBSS OR UNREPS WITHOUT CHANGING THE
WATCH BILL.
- BY SEPARATING KEY PLAYERS FROM THEIR IMMEDIATE
SUBORDINATES, MORE JUNIOR OFFICERS HAVE TO STEP UP FOR
KEY EVENTS AND SENIORS ARE FORCED TO DELEGATE MORE ITEMS.
- THERE ARE MORE SAILORS ON THE MESS DECKS LATE AT NIGHT
(SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE) BUT OVERALL THE FEEDBACK FROM
ALL INVOLVED HAS BEEN VERY POSITIVE.
- FINALLY, THE ENGINEERS IN THE HOT MAIN SPACES HAVE
BENEFITED FROM THE 3-HOUR WATCHES AND LONG RECOVERY
TIMES WHICH MINIMIZE THE RISK OF HEAT STRESS. EVEN IN THE
C5F AOR, IN THE HOTTEST MONTH OF THE SUMMER, STAY TIME
AND RECOVERY TIMES WERE NEVER AN ISSUE.
IN TODAY'S ENVIRONMENT, OUR SAILORS ARE WORKING HARDER THAN EVER BEFORE.
OUR JOB AS LEADERS IS TO LOOK OUT FOR THEM AND ENSURE SAFETY IS
PARAMOUNT. ENSURING OUR SAILORS ARE GETTING ADEQUATE SLEEP, AND ARE
ABLE TO EXECUTE A CONSISTENT WORKDAY AND CIRCADIAN RHYTHM, WILL ONLY
BENEFIT THE NAVY MORE. INSTEAD OF LONG HOURS BARELY AWAKE AND
STRUGGLING TO MAKE IT THROUGH A DAY, OUR SAILORS HAVE SPENT THIS
DEPLOYMENT MORE ALERT THAN IN THE PAST AND READY FOR ACTION AT ANYTIME.

5. VICTORY IS CERTAIN!
END QUOTE.//

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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T12:59:35+00:00

skipather wrote at 27 Jul 2010 07:59 AM GMT: eh, nothing new there, as NAV of USS Last Frigate I set in place a '4 on, 8 off' watch rotation so each team stood the same watch each day, the benefits are innumerable as outlined in this message.

We went a step further so that if there were six indivuduals qualified for the same watch position (CICWO, OOD, etc) we went to a '4 on, 20 off' rotation. That really motivated people to get their quals done.

OBTW; the three section '4 on, 8 off' watch system has been used for decades in the Merchant Marine.
_________________
"Once you go black-shoe you never go back!"
-My Fiancee' (An MH-60S Pilot)

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T13:07:32+00:00

CruDes4Life wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:07 AM GMT:

skipather wrote:

eh, nothing new there, as NAV of USS Last Frigate I set in place a '4 on, 8 off' watch rotation so each team stood the same watch each day, the benefits are innumerable as outlined in this message.

We went a step further so that if there were six indivuduals qualified for the same watch position (CICWO, OOD, etc) we went to a '4 on, 20 off' rotation. That really motivated people to get their quals done.

OBTW; the three section '4 on, 8 off' watch system has been used for decades in the Merchant Marine.

I think you're missing the subtlety of the change...and it is new. Sometimes it's the little things that can make the biggest difference.

I admit that at first glance, 3 hours seems like an awfully short watch rotation for establishing a rhythm and SA -- but the benefits seems pretty appealing.

I would argue that the rotation proposed is significantly different than a 3-section, 4/8 rotation -- and the potential improvements in performance and crew satisfaction seem pretty encouraging.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T13:13:48+00:00

Anathema wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:13 AM GMT: Every few years someone comes up with another innovative way to work the clock.

And it works on deployment, with the personalities that put it in place.

When the ship gets back to homeport, and the shorter duration underways kick in, with ATG training evolutions and so on and so forth, and people transfer or move up, the system invariably falls apart.

New ideas are great - but a commander should work hard to avoid making changes that his relief cannot execute.
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[b:1d9642cc59](NOUO)[/b:1d9642cc59] This post is classified Non Official Use Only.

So then, should anyone have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T13:20:23+00:00

Flint wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:20 AM GMT: My last ship did something like this. 3 hour watches twice a day was the low point in the cycle, usually it was 6 sections and 2 hour watches. Maintained this through the entire 18 months that I was onboard. CO and XO were both onboard with it and it continues to this day as far as I know. It is a little easier to do on a big deck amphib though with all the additional watchstanders from other designators. I wasn't a fan at first but the rotation grew on me. No joy for TAOs though, we still stood 6 hour watches.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T13:24:22+00:00

skipather wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:24 AM GMT: Sir,

Allow me to clarify; a 3 hr watch is no doubt a good thing, but I just can't buy it as new or innovative. When I worked as a Third Mate for Maersk-Sealand, a few ships in our fleet went to a rather unusual watch rotation that looked something like this:
2/M 00-06
3/M 06-08
2/M 08-10
C/M 10-12
3/M 12-18
C/M 18-24
if I recall correctly
(C/M=Chief Mate, 2/M=Second Mate, etc)
from what I understand it didn't last long because of lack of oppurtunity for overtime but it did have the benefit that nobody's rythem was ever really broken.

Since my time on Active duty I've seen crews subjegated to many differant schemes to deal with shortages of qualified watchstanders, or for various training asshatery, 6 and 6, 6 and 12, 5 and 10, etc... IMHO the three or four hour watch is just short enough to not be overly fatiging and just long enough to promote good SA between turnovers.

concur with Anathema, training has to be able to support whichever scheme is put into play.
_________________
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-My Fiancee' (An MH-60S Pilot)

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T13:34:42+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:34 AM GMT: It looks good on paper. Personally, I'm suspicious of change in general, but a couple of deployments back, I spent the first month trying to establish something a little similar. Trying to establish some sort of rhythm meant crushing the Senior Watch Officer's desire to have dogged watch in the afternoon, but some stability is better than nothing, even if it's the 4-on, 12-off rotation.

Undermanning compared to EDORM-required watch stations meant that the snipes stayed in port-and-starboard virtually the entire time, so it wasn't roses and pixie dust for everyone, but I doubt there will ever be a 100% solution to all watch issues.

I doubt that SAN JACINTO's solution will work for all of us, but it is good food for thought, and hopefully will result in some changes that are good for crews and ships.
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Professional :: Somehow, it doesn't always work (reply)

2010-07-27T14:43:39+00:00

swohog wrote at 27 Jul 2010 09:43 AM GMT: I would offer one word of caution. On a CVN (in the plant), we instituted this several years back for about the first two months of deployment. Granted, this is a little bit different environment, but the rotation and work day are not that different. Reading this message, it sounds similar to what the officers experienced. We all loved it ...

On the other hand, the enlisted guys hated it. As a group that has far less control of their day-to-day sched, they tended to get pulled into things more frequently during those off hours. Also, you can talk about early and late sleepers, but in a berthing compartment with people on different schedules, it just doesn't work out as well as being snug in your stateroom. I can also remember hearing the complaint that they always felt like they had no time between watches.

I know CAPT Cordle and my hats off to him for trying something different to make things better. However, if you try this I would MAKE SURE you get feedback from ALL levels of the chain of command. What works for your Divos may be making Deck Department or the young engineers miserable.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T15:01:06+00:00

SWOhioan wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:01 AM GMT: What is this four section of which you speak?

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T15:21:12+00:00

o1tobe wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:21 AM GMT: As a future OPS, I love the idea of having a routine! I'd even take a routine of 3 hours of sleep a night if it replaced what happened on last deployment which was give lip service to rest, but then demand all khaki not on watch be present at Khaki call.

As I understand it, SJC implemented this on deployment? But, what do the ships do now as Anathema and others have pointed out that the Training Cycle u/w's are much more demanding to prevent from reverting back to the, "Suck it up" mentality?

To me it seems that those 3-5 day, 20lbs in a 5lb bag certification underways pose the greatest fatigue induced risk.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T15:27:50+00:00

skipather wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:27 AM GMT: regardless of what watch rotation is in place, certain officers are always on call, CO, XO, OPS, NAV, CHENG
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T15:38:14+00:00

dannyboy wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:38 AM GMT: Five and dimes are the dumbest thing in the world and everyone in the world from a brand new Ensign to my little sister knows this, except SWO XO's and CO's.

Last ship (CVN) stood 4 section 6 hours, switched up on Sundays. It was so much a relief.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T15:38:34+00:00

Maindeck wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:38 AM GMT: Deployments are always great proving grounds for good ideas. They rarely (never liked using never) stand the test of time outside of that regimen. With all the CCRs and Training Team requirements how does it match up if they are all being "really" done. At least they now have their annual Safety message submission requirement complete for the Safety Award. I'm just sayin.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T16:11:02+00:00

capn george wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:11 AM GMT: I'm impressed that issues of fatigue and human factors are being addressed by the TYCOM, et al.

I am disappointed by it's characterization as being a "sea change". I'd be much more impressed if the message stated: " We woke-the-fuck-up and decided to listen to the folks who are standing the watches, AT SEA."

Or: "We finally realized that lots of folks figured out how to do this better a long time ago."

Of course all of this is an improvement on the previous response to crew fatigue issues: "SURFACE LINE, suck on mine."

Well done SAN JAC.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T16:16:20+00:00

Anathema wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:16 AM GMT:

capn george wrote:

I'm impressed that issues of fatigue and human factors are being addressed by the TYCOM, et al.

I am disappointed by it's characterization as being a "sea change". I'd be much more impressed if the message stated: " We woke-the-fuck-up and decided to listen to the folks who are standing the watches, AT SEA."

Or: "We finally realized that lots of folks figured out how to do this better a long time ago."

Of course all of this is an improvement on the previous response to crew fatigue issues: "SURFACE LINE, suck on mine."

Well done SAN JAC.

"Sea Change" is just someone's way of saying "I never thought about this until now."

There's a story on sleep or fatigue every couple of years or so. The MIDN blogger at USNI was posting on it within the past year.

If an officer in Major Command is just now recognizing the issue...where has he been for the past 24 years?

Then again, maybe Maindeck as a point in his penultimate sentance...
_________________
[b:1d9642cc59](NOUO)[/b:1d9642cc59] This post is classified Non Official Use Only.

So then, should anyone have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T16:19:59+00:00

swoness2010 wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:19 AM GMT: Great idea but its not a novel. A 4 duty section underway is ideal but not always reality. On USS LastShip we did 8 on and 16 off. One 5 hrs watch and we dogged the afternoon watch. Every Sunday we rotated our watch period. We started this rotation during workups and kept it for the ensuing deployment. It was great! lots of time off to do "work." In addition, all watchteams were in synch and there was a better sense of "continuity" among the watch teams (we knew who was on watch). Once more people became qualified we had more flexibility in terms of giving people breaks and affording them time to pursue other qualifications.
Ship's training was tailored around the rotation, all drills and scenarios took place in the afternoon. Another thing that helped was that our CO gave out "real" quals, meaning that no matter what evolution was taking place whoever had the watch had the evolution.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T16:23:55+00:00

skipather wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:23 AM GMT:

swoness2010 wrote:

Blah...blah...blah...Another thing that helped was that our CO gave out "real" quals...

Sadly in this modern world of 'social promotion' this is the exception to the rule...
_________________
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T16:27:30+00:00

pkoelsch wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:27 AM GMT: If I wasn't port and starboard I was happy.

If they can make it work, more power to them. Tough to keep that kind of depth in the watch team without sacrificing something, especially when faced with our current manning and training shortfalls.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T16:53:12+00:00

Maindeck wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:53 AM GMT: But it really is not the watchstanding that is the problem...it is the multitude of other items which overfills the "time off" between watches that is the killer. Slice it however you want, but if the "time off" is filled with meetings, messages, repairs, answering the phone, emails, powerpoints, database entry, inspections, etc....the end state still drives toward overworked and tired. Being an operator is easy; being a maintainer is easy....being both operator and maintainer grinds down quickly. How do we resolve that?
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T16:54:36+00:00

swodom wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:54 AM GMT: European model? Separate operators and maintainers...
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T17:34:22+00:00

jhawk_swo wrote at 27 Jul 2010 12:34 PM GMT:

Maindeck wrote:

But it really is not the watchstanding that is the problem...it is the multitude of other items which overfills the "time off" between watches that is the killer. Slice it however you want, but if the "time off" is filled with meetings, messages, repairs, answering the phone, emails, powerpoints, database entry, inspections, etc....the end state still drives toward overworked and tired. Being an operator is easy; being a maintainer is easy....being both operator and maintainer grinds down quickly. How do we resolve that?

I agree that the down time is normally filled with work and meetings that lead to be overworked and tired. However, I think that the actual watch would go better at only 3 hours long. One of my teachers here at NPS is a pretty established authority on sleep. She has mentioned many times that once you reach the 2 and a half to 3 hour mark, your mind starts to wander. By making the watch only 3 hours, you're able to eliminate some of that effect.

This system was actually brought to her attention about a week ago, and she's on the search for thesis students. She actually has data from past ships on their watch rotations and sleep schedules. Someone could fly to the San Jac and have the watchstanders wear actigraphs that will record how much sleep people are getting and how efficient that sleep is. Unfortunately, my entire cohort is already buried in their theses, so none of us are able to take it one, but it would be nice to see some actual data that either backed up or refuted the idea.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T17:48:28+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 27 Jul 2010 12:48 PM GMT:

dannyboy wrote:

Five and dimes are the dumbest thing in the world and everyone in the world from a brand new Ensign to my little sister knows this, except SWO XO's and CO's.

Last ship (CVN) stood 4 section 6 hours, switched up on Sundays. It was so much a relief.

4 section five and dimes are good stuff. 5 section is awesome. And yes we did both on deployment.

The only hurt on the 4 section five and dimes is that 2-7 with a full workday followed by the 10-2. But with five section you can hit the pit after eight oclocks.

I remember distinctly asking myself in 5 section five and dimes when I had next watch. The answer? Next Tuesday.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T20:08:32+00:00

ekim11 wrote at 27 Jul 2010 03:08 PM GMT: In 3 section I liked 6 and 12. If you're worried about the rhythm and keeping the same schedule then I think 6 and 18 is better than 3 and 9. A 6 hour watch is easy, unless you have heat stress issues.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T20:16:28+00:00

rushtonj wrote at 27 Jul 2010 03:16 PM GMT: On my MCM, we implemented a port/stbd, 6 hour watchbill that can be broken down into four sections at Condition III. Basically, every position has two people in each section assigned to it. While at Condition III, the two folks split the watch, so you essentially get three hours on, nine hours off...always at the same time every day. When we go to any of the Condition II watches, then the port or stbd section on watch handles it. For instance, if Condition IMH (mine hunting and neutralization) is set, one of the two Port OODs will take the bridge while the other becomes the TAO/Evaluator. Stbd section relieves at the normal time, again with the two watchstanders slpitting to man two separate watch positions until we ramp back down to Condition III,

It works throughout the watchbill, but we had to push hard to get at least four people qualified for all Condition III watches and two people qualified for all Condition II and Condition I watches.

The crew loves it...very predictable day, and no getting jacked around when we set various details and conditions. The only thing we haven�t been able to completely split is UNREP, but that's infrequent enough not to really matter.

I have to admit I'm very proud of this watchbill solution. MCMs normally work themselves to exhaustion after about four days of mine hunting or sweeping, but we feel we can do our job essentially forever (or until we run out of grub).
[/i]
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T20:38:59+00:00

GatorSailor43 wrote at 27 Jul 2010 03:38 PM GMT: I used this on USS Last Ship and it was freakin' awesome. We had almost no problem with people showing up late, overall SA was great, and the best part was that with the fixed watch times, handling day-to-day tasks were much more easily scheduled (no having to extrapolate to figure out which watch you'd be standing a week from now). Only down side was getting stuck with the 0000-0300...we instituted late sleepers and solved that one.

Professional :: Re: Somehow, it doesn't always work (reply)

2010-07-27T21:16:34+00:00

bigmountain wrote at 27 Jul 2010 04:16 PM GMT:

swohog wrote:

I would offer one word of caution. On a CVN (in the plant), we instituted this several years back for about the first two months of deployment. Granted, this is a little bit different environment, but the rotation and work day are not that different. Reading this message, it sounds similar to what the officers experienced. We all loved it ...

On the other hand, the enlisted guys hated it. As a group that has far less control of their day-to-day sched, they tended to get pulled into things more frequently during those off hours. Also, you can talk about early and late sleepers, but in a berthing compartment with people on different schedules, it just doesn't work out as well as being snug in your stateroom. I can also remember hearing the complaint that they always felt like they had no time between watches.

I know CAPT Cordle and my hats off to him for trying something different to make things better. However, if you try this I would MAKE SURE you get feedback from ALL levels of the chain of command. What works for your Divos may be making Deck Department or the young engineers miserable.

I thought the exact same thing about the enlisted side. My ship is pretty much in four sections for officers now, but many of the enlisted watchstanders are in port and starboard, or possibly three section. We do the best we can, but I'm not sure you could get to four sections for some of those watches.

If it comes across as a good deal for only the wardroom, I don't see that being good for morale.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T21:16:40+00:00

Fail2Sail wrote at 27 Jul 2010 04:16 PM GMT: It isn't new, it's just being broadcast for the first time.

This was my deployment rotation for 7 straight months on last ship, and was implemented for my 2 years, and the 2 before me...pretty sure they deployed on that plan once more since. Worked beautifully, and allowed for planning all sorts of things ahead. Not everyone was on this rotation, OS's, QM's, etc...but OOD, JOOD, Conn, TAO, Force TAO, and W, were.

As CHENG, it allowed me to not think about which divo would cover me for various things I was on watch for, because MPA and DCA knew my sked just as well and could adjust without micromanagement. I won't say I slept much, but I knew every day when I was going to work out and when I was going to sleep. I could also forecast out my (gasp...) naps. My XO was an ass, and would regularly wake people for no good reason (longer story than necessary), but once that was rectified by a 5 DH combined intervention, things were perfect. WEPS had the 00-03, and it was just known not to look for him until later on in the morning.

I can't explain how much easier a 3 hour watch is, and how much more on your game you are during that period, even when it was my 03-06 watch.

Engineers were on a different sked entirely, as we shorted the plant watches at night, and lengthened during the day.

Saying 5/dimes work in 4 section and 5 is all well and good...but it just isn't reality because most people don't have the bodies for 4+ qualified watchsections.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T21:20:39+00:00

Tincan wrote at 27 Jul 2010 04:20 PM GMT: I've been lucky enough to have tried several variations on watch rotations...some worked better than others, but in the end what it came down to was chow-to-chow for as many sections as the ship could reasonably support. There are few things I detest more than the chow relief concept.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T21:46:43+00:00

Dirsuper wrote at 27 Jul 2010 04:46 PM GMT:

Maindeck wrote:

Being an operator is easy; being a maintainer is easy....being both operator and maintainer grinds down quickly. How do we resolve that?

Sir,

We are already WAY down the road towards that one......and just wait a few more years after the final Sailors who were actually trained to know their gear retire......problem solved! My bros who stayed on the 'E' side are retiring into jobs making some great cash.....they love the direction the Navy is going!
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T22:26:29+00:00

MrSwo wrote at 27 Jul 2010 05:26 PM GMT:

Quote:

THE PRIMARY EFFECT IS THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH A CIRCADIAN RHYTHM BY
STANDING THE SAME WATCH AND WORKING THE SAME HOURS EVERY DAY.

amen!
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-27T22:49:06+00:00

bigmountain wrote at 27 Jul 2010 05:49 PM GMT:

MrSwo wrote:

Quote:

THE PRIMARY EFFECT IS THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH A CIRCADIAN RHYTHM BY
STANDING THE SAME WATCH AND WORKING THE SAME HOURS EVERY DAY.

amen!

At least for two weeks until they change it and you have to readjust.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-28T00:32:19+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 27 Jul 2010 07:32 PM GMT:

MrSwo wrote:

Quote:

THE PRIMARY EFFECT IS THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH A CIRCADIAN RHYTHM BY
STANDING THE SAME WATCH AND WORKING THE SAME HOURS EVERY DAY.

amen!

I dont see what crickets have to do with this.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-28T03:19:19+00:00

noonan wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:19 PM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

dannyboy wrote:

Five and dimes are, by their very definition, three section watch so I'm a little confused on how you define it in four section(5 and 15s?) or 5 (same watch every day so essentially 5 and 19s?). Can you clarify for a dumb rock like me?

BT

On last ship CHENG and I were P/S for 3.5 months as TAO (OPS was TAD to CDS on AABOT). Sucked. A LOT. Still, I would take P/S every day and twice on Sunday over five and dimes. At least in P/S you get into a rhythm of sleep/watch...the other stuff depends on your XO/CO. I was very fortunate that my XO/CO didn't expect me to be at the meetings during my off time, only to have a representative there...which was nice.

Eventually we had TRAINO standing the 22-02 every night, his only watch, then CHENG and I got a little more sleep. Then OSC stood the 02-07 every night, also his only watch and CHENG and I rotated through the three day watches. That was glorious. A guaranteed eight in the pit every night is a fantastic feeling, let me tell you.
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Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-29T10:18:37+00:00

Beach SWO wrote at 29 Jul 2010 05:18 AM GMT: Here are some questions and answers that have been asked to CAPT Cordle and SJA. Hope this helps answer some of those concerns about the watch rotations.

Q: Are all watchstations in 4 section?
A: No, some areas did not have the manning. OS and BM for example are in port and starboard, in a 6 on 6 off rotation. This does however sync up with the rest of the teams in the same circadian rhythm. OS�s have few other duties besides watch, and the BM and SN are split into watchstanders and workers so that the watchstanders are not tasked with maintenance and preservation.

Q: So you must be fully manned?
A: SJA is currently manned per the EDVR at 267/291 or 91%. With 9 IA�s and unplanned losses, we muster around 240 enlisted underway for 82% onboard. SN manning is 5 for 20 or 25% due to a fleetwide shortage of SN

Q: How long did it take to get into this rotation?
A: This was a deployment goal. We built the skeleton 4 section watchbill at the beginning of C2X and identified who needed to qualify to reach it. It did require some junior personnel to qualify control stations (E5 CSOOW, E6 EOOW, and several CPO/E6 at AAWC, SUWC, USWC). It tool the first 6 weeks of deployment to get to 4 section in most areas.

Q: What about watch turnover?
A; This has been a focus area and a potential weak point. Since most watchstanders stand the same watch each day, they get proficient in that �battle rhythm� and can execute it a bit better, plus they know what to expect from the external battle rhythm. Turnover checksheets and good communications via night orders, etc. are important.

Q. What about the daily routine?
A. We try to keep meetings, training, etc. between 0900 and 1500 to allow personnel with the night watches to sleep in or hit the rack early if desired. Some divisions do quarters at 0745, some at 1230 and some I the afternoon at the discretion of the Department Head. Khaki call is held at the Ops/intel brief at 1515 each day. Meal hours had to be adjusted a bit to accommodate turnover times.

Q: Doesn�t one watchteam get all the heavy evolutions?
A. Not really because each of the 4 sections has a day watch and a night watch, so any evolutions like VBSS, flight ops, etc. are just as likely to happen on any watch.

Q: Anything that made this easier for SJA?
A: Being an independent deployer made it easier since we were not assigned AAWC duties or tied to the CVN battle rhythm. We did have to stand up extra watches for Counter Piracy Ops (like a CICWO for Centrix) but officer manning, unlike enlisted, is very high so most teams have plenty of officers to stand watch.

Q. Any other tangible side effects?
A. SJA was able to qualify over 125 personnel in ESWS because Sailors had more time to study and were pushed to qualify more watch stations than on my last deployment on the DDG.

Q. What has been the main benefit?
A. The circadian rhythm allows personnel to adjust and get rest. As CO I visit most of the watchstations each day at different hours, and I generally see an awake alert watchteam. This was not my experience on my last deployment as a CO, or as a Department Head where I stood 3 section TAO on 5 and dimes for 6 months and was tired all the time.

Q. What has been the main detractor?
A. Some of the rotations are still pretty painful, mainly the 00-03/12-15, which is the most difficult get 6 hrs sleep, and the 06-09/18-21, which makes if feel like you are on watch all day. But some folks love these rotations and most are able to adjust their schedules to fit it sleep and PT.

Professional :: A New Spin on the Watch Rotation (reply)

2010-07-29T12:14:53+00:00

skipather wrote at 29 Jul 2010 07:14 AM GMT: well, still sucks to be an OS underway...
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Professional :: South China Sea Partnership Station?

2010-07-28T12:02:35+00:00

NavHist wrote at 28 Jul 2010 07:02 AM GMT: If we had to be present nearly all the time to uphold our national interests in the South China Sea (as SecState so declared) what would you put there in the way of a "Partnership Station/Influence Squadron"? I'm thinking an old LPD mothership with an FFG/USCG Cutter, a JHSV and some PC's. Cycle them in and out of the Philippenes, Vietnam, and Indonesia and really get the PRC spun up.
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Professional :: A little help (reply)

2010-07-24T11:37:09+00:00

banzai wrote at 24 Jul 2010 06:37 AM GMT: swohioan and swoisme: good info, thanks. I wasn't really sure what Flag Sec did either, so that helps a lot.
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Professional :: A little help (reply)

2010-07-28T10:23:19+00:00

Skijunky wrote at 28 Jul 2010 05:23 AM GMT: Never had an interview.

Every Flag Sec job is different especially between the 1/2 stars and the 3/4 stars.

I'm on a four star staff and I report directly to the DCOM who is a 3*. Each staff has its own way of doing things. Do you know who you are going to work for? If so, contact the current Flag Sec and see what they do. I did.

Professional :: Zone Inspection Checklist

2010-07-28T00:09:29+00:00

GTSWO wrote at 27 Jul 2010 07:09 PM GMT: I used to have a Nuclear Level Gouge sheet on Zone Inspections. What to look for down to seemingly trivial items. Having lost the gouge and wanting to train my crew on how to do a proper zone ispection, I am looking for anyone that happens to have a good checklist.

Before the clever folks with laughs start at me:
- Feel free to grab your JO's and take them aorund and point out discrepancies - after all you should know how to do a Zoner by now - Got it.
- Make your own - Don't have the time for it, if one is available

If you have a good source, I would be appreciative.

Mahalo
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Professional :: Zone Inspection Checklist (reply)

2010-07-28T01:19:35+00:00

Tincan wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:19 PM GMT: Sir,

Not to point out the hyper-obvious, but have you looked at the MRC for compartment inspection?

I've always found it to be...thourough...if nothing else.

Should be a good starting point.
_________________
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"Morons. I've got morons on my team."
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Professional :: Zone Inspection Checklist (reply)

2010-07-28T01:26:57+00:00

ghentdog wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:26 PM GMT: Sir, INSURV used to have a good several pages long checksheet for a space inspection. There is also one for Fan rooms. I was INSURV coordinator on a previous ship, but they has revamped their website so I'm still scrounging around to see if I can find it.

Professional :: Zone Inspection Checklist (reply)

2010-07-28T04:14:11+00:00

GTSWO wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:14 PM GMT: Tincan, ghentdog

Thanks. Pulled the Compartment inspection, should be able to develop a one pager out of it to carry around.

I am also checking the INSURV site, seem to remember a good checklist there as well.

Mahalo.
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Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-24T07:00:52+00:00

maxnharry wrote at 24 Jul 2010 02:00 AM GMT:

Monty Burns wrote:

- You�ll spend much less time at sea in supply, but will probably move more often. Career enhancing duty stations for Supply Officers include places like Columbus OH, and Mechanicsburg PA. I�ve known 20+ year chops that never did two tours in the same geographic location. If you dream of spending 70% of your career in Norfolk or San Diego, supply may not be your thing.

All your points were excellent, but this one was one I didn't really think about, and you're spot-on. I did two back to back tours in Norfolk for only 36 months. Otherwise it's been a PCS move every time I've gotten orders. We just don't have tons and tons of billets in every area to allow folks to stay, so if you see yourself in Jax or Norfolk for ever and ever, Supply may not be for you.

Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-24T13:56:57+00:00

AllChoptUp wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:56 AM GMT: And then there are folks like me - been in this area my entire career. Being part of a dual mil couple caused some of that since there are so many commands in Hampton Roads that could accomodate both our designators, but the other part is that a lot of people don't like HR and avoid duty here, preferring San Diego, Mayport, Pearl, etc.
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Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T06:55:55+00:00

Renegade wrote at 26 Jul 2010 01:55 AM GMT: Think you should have asked this question before you submitted your package.

I say this because although you were selected for both your final selection will be for the designator you put first. If your first choice was SWO then thats going to be your designator. The choice is no longer yours after you are selected.

Just like you I had 8yrs when I was picked up last year (prior PS2). Picked the same designators and was selected for both, but I put Supply first, SWO second and only as a back up. I didn't really want to be a SWO, but would have rather been a SWO then remain a PS2!

Because Supply was my first choice my designator is Supply, and I couldn't be happier to be one! If you were smart enough to have put Supply first on your application then you will learn very quickly how close of a community Supply is.

PM me if you want more info from the perspective of a fellow 8yr prior turned Supply JO!

Good luck at OCS!!
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Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T08:46:28+00:00

bigmountain wrote at 26 Jul 2010 03:46 AM GMT:

AllChoptUp wrote:

Supply is business oriented and heavy on attention to detail.

Attention to detail? Is that why the menu in the POD on my ship only rarely matches what is actually served?
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Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T11:30:10+00:00

AllChoptUp wrote at 26 Jul 2010 06:30 AM GMT:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

Supply is business oriented and heavy on attention to detail.

Attention to detail? Is that why the menu in the POD on my ship only rarely matches what is actually served?

You sound fat.
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Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T17:55:41+00:00

maxnharry wrote at 26 Jul 2010 12:55 PM GMT:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

Supply is business oriented and heavy on attention to detail.

Attention to detail? Is that why the menu in the POD on my ship only rarely matches what is actually served?

Sounds like a leadership problem.

Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T21:13:09+00:00

bigmountain wrote at 26 Jul 2010 04:13 PM GMT:

AllChoptUp wrote:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

Supply is business oriented and heavy on attention to detail.

Attention to detail? Is that why the menu in the POD on my ship only rarely matches what is actually served?

You sound fat.

Fat? Or observant?
_________________
Who's the hood rat with Brock? He can get any shorty he wants.

Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T21:15:25+00:00

bigmountain wrote at 26 Jul 2010 04:15 PM GMT:

maxnharry wrote:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

Supply is business oriented and heavy on attention to detail.

Attention to detail? Is that why the menu in the POD on my ship only rarely matches what is actually served?

Sounds like a leadership problem.

Ah, but whose leadership? I assume you mean the XO's - who is not me, by the way - and not any of the ten guys in the Supply Dept whose job is all about being "business oriented and heavy on attention to detail."

And before you go there, I know that's not your quote.
_________________
Who's the hood rat with Brock? He can get any shorty he wants.

Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T21:16:36+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 26 Jul 2010 04:16 PM GMT:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

Supply is business oriented and heavy on attention to detail.

Attention to detail? Is that why the menu in the POD on my ship only rarely matches what is actually served?

You sound fat.

Fat? Or observant?

As Anathema would say "why so binary? Why cant he be fat and observant?"
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Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-26T23:11:40+00:00

bigmountain wrote at 26 Jul 2010 06:11 PM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

bigmountain wrote:

AllChoptUp wrote:

Supply is business oriented and heavy on attention to detail.

Attention to detail? Is that why the menu in the POD on my ship only rarely matches what is actually served?

You sound fat.

Fat? Or observant?

As Anathema would say "why so binary? Why cant he be fat and observant?"

I like to think I am all things to all people.
_________________
Who's the hood rat with Brock? He can get any shorty he wants.

Professional :: URL vs. Staff (reply)

2010-07-27T20:27:48+00:00

NavyOrdie wrote at 27 Jul 2010 03:27 PM GMT: First, thank you everyone for all the feedback, it's greatly appreciated.

To try and touch base on a few things though, hmm, what makes me wanna get up in the morning and do this until I retire? My family. I love what I do and love the organization that I'm fortunate enough to be apart of (mmmm, I love kool-aid). I believe Sailors are meant for sea, however after having been around the block for a few laps, I would rather have a more active helping hand in raising my family (1 little one, with plans for numero 2 soon) then being gone so frequently that my homeport is nothing more then a port call. If I can support the Navy's mission and spend more time with the family, it is def something I will want to do.

Tater, Sir, it's always great to hear a perspective from another Ordie and obviously your description breaks it down pretty easy/well. Truth be told I have always been a Mag-Rat, I love it and know it very well. In fact it's all I have done my career, even on shore duty while being the primary Armorer. I have enjoyed whenever I went up to the roof, but being up there full time has never been in my cards. This kinda cracks me up because my CMC (EN type who is rooting SWO) asked me just last week which designator I wanted. My response was simple: If I could put em together like a sandwich and call it a day, I would. Since I can't though, I'm still unsure .

The bennies of having a top notch degree from a place such as Northwestern, Warrington or William and Mary (as mentioned) is phenomenal! If I am fortunate enough to get into a program like that (I believe the 810 program) I would jump on it in a heartbeat! While an MBA may not be as prestigious from NPS compared to the likes of Tuck or Wharton, I would be stoked and honored to still have a chance to earn my MBA from there. Plus, doing it on the Navy's dime is never a bad deal!

One thing that was new to me was the information on PCS moves. I was under the impression that I would be able to stay in a fleet concentration area (hint hint San Diego) for the rest of my career with no issues. Apparently I was wrong about that, but no big deal. When I mentioned it to my wife her only response was "Oh... it's just like now. ok". That 'fortunate' outlook is due to a homeport change from Nawfork to San Dawg and PCS to the middle of nowhe... *cough* Texas all within 5-6 years.

Monty, a lot of great info Sir, but I definitely laughed when I saw yer last sentence. From everyone I have spoken to on msg boards or in person lately, with the rep SWO tends to carry, everyone was quick to tell me to run away fast! So when you mentioned you transfer in to SWO, I could only imagine the looks you received.

Renegade, thanks fer the gouge on the designator listing order Sir. I have been trying to get a definitive answer about that for the last few weeks. In my case I did in fact put Supply down as my number one choice, so I guess I will know what I'm going to be doing now.

Honestly, I don't know if I am going to do just 12 more yrs and get out, or do 20+yrs as an Officer and get out (depending on my rank obviously). I genuinely believe any job is what you make of it, enjoyment or torment wise and was looking for gouge on the communities, so thank you again to everyone that has thrown their hat into the ring with their knowledge! Fer the chops out there, I would love to take you up on the offer for Q&A's or general knowledge and will shoot PM's out later.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI

2010-07-24T23:58:56+00:00

GatorSailor43 wrote at 24 Jul 2010 06:58 PM GMT: Please, for the love of God, learn how to drive!

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T00:23:03+00:00

YokoSWO wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:23 PM GMT: I second that! Been here just over two weeks now and still can't get over how impatient they can be. Maybe it's my California plates that piss them off.
_________________
Nothing clever to say.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T00:31:52+00:00

thegoodsailorsvejk wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:31 PM GMT: i think its because most of them are only in town for the weekend and dont necessarily know where they are drivin... it isnt so bad during the week.

or maybe having been in norfolk so long, im imune to bad drivers...
_________________
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Rio, voc� foi feito pra mim

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T00:56:22+00:00

irishpennant wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:56 PM GMT: I would open that letter to all of New England. I thought Norfokkers were bad, but it's insane up there.
_________________
"The dude abides." Jeff Lebowski

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T01:00:18+00:00

MIWSWO wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:00 PM GMT: Just the drivers piss you off? How about that elegant Susse Chalet? Now there is prime example of ripping off the government.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T01:11:25+00:00

NewtonSWO wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:11 PM GMT: They don't call them "Massholes" for nothin'
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T01:48:45+00:00

SaltyDog wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:48 PM GMT: This thread is unprofessional, incorrect and way out of line. There is nothing wrong with New England drivers.

Regards,
Ted Kennedy
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"When at grips with the enemy on the sea, beneath the sea and in the air, no Task Force Commander ever had enough destroyers"
VADM Walden L. Ainsworth

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T01:49:49+00:00

CruDes4Life wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:49 PM GMT:

YokoSWO wrote:

I second that! Been here just over two weeks now and still can't get over how impatient they can be. Maybe it's my California plates that piss them off.

Maybe it's not the plates...maybe it's your driving!

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T02:19:04+00:00

irishpennant wrote at 24 Jul 2010 09:19 PM GMT:

MIWSWO wrote:

Just the drivers piss you off? How about that elegant Susse Chalet? Now there is prime example of ripping off the government.

You know, I recently stayed at the Chalet for the first time. Having heard horror stories for years - I was pleasantly surprised. Would much rather be in a room at the Q with a kitchen so I didn't have to eat out every night...but again, after years of horror stories not as bad as I imagined....at least not for 2 weeks.
_________________
"The dude abides." Jeff Lebowski

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T02:42:58+00:00

YokoSWO wrote at 24 Jul 2010 09:42 PM GMT:

CruDes4Life wrote:

YokoSWO wrote:

I second that! Been here just over two weeks now and still can't get over how impatient they can be. Maybe it's my California plates that piss them off.

Maybe it's not the plates...maybe it's your driving!

Possible, never claimed to be the best driver out there..but I'm still better than most here
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T04:03:53+00:00

Scupper wrote at 24 Jul 2010 11:03 PM GMT: Welcome to Newport! Now go back home!
_________________
"I drink too much. The last time I gave a urine sample it had an olive in it" ~ Rodney Dangerfield.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T04:33:22+00:00

Pokerhound wrote at 24 Jul 2010 11:33 PM GMT: I thought I had seen my fair share of piss poor drivers; from Italy to Tokyo, Florida to Chicago and LA.

Newport drivers probably caused me to drink more often than not during my stay there last year. UN-efen-believable.

And I know it wasn't the locals...all those damned tourists!
_________________
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.
- Michael Crichton

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T13:59:28+00:00

Bilgediver wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:59 AM GMT: I was told that RI drivers license doesn't require a practical demonstration. No driving with an examiner. Paper test only. Explains the nation's highest car insurance rates.
_________________
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T14:27:36+00:00

SWOhioan wrote at 25 Jul 2010 09:27 AM GMT:

Bilgediver wrote:

Explains the nation's highest car insurance rates.

I'd be interested to see where that info is listed.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T15:21:14+00:00

GatorSailor43 wrote at 25 Jul 2010 10:21 AM GMT: Just started this thread because I live literally three miles from the base and every day I seem to have a near miss with someone who:

(1) Stops the flow of traffic to allow someone else to turn left in front of them
(2) Has no idea what a roundabout is or that THE OUTSIDE LANE IS A TURN ONLY LANE
(3) Decides that he or she can make an immediate left turn at a light when it turns even if it doesn't have an arrow

There are more, but I don't want to keep rambling. Anyone else have any blatantly bad Newport driving stories?

PS I have Rhode Island plates and most of the people I see doing this stupid stuff also have them.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T15:24:05+00:00

sherlock wrote at 25 Jul 2010 10:24 AM GMT:

Pokerhound wrote:

And I know it wasn't the locals...all those damned tourists!

No, it's the locals too. Look at the license plates. After 3 tours there I've lost count of how many times I was almost killed at that damn traffic circle heading to the main gate. Only about 5 people in the state that understand how you're supposed to navigate one of those things.

I have also been stationed in Florida, Norfolk, San Diego, Hawaii, and Japan. Although they can all get interesting, I felt the least safe driving in New England. Partially because of the crappy state of many roads, but mostly because of the crappy state of many drivers.
_________________
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T16:53:59+00:00

InflictSwo wrote at 25 Jul 2010 11:53 AM GMT: I thought Rhode Island was the worst drivers, but I just spent 5 months in Washington State and they are much worse.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T18:23:53+00:00

Unomongo wrote at 25 Jul 2010 01:23 PM GMT:

SWOhioan wrote:

Bilgediver wrote:

Explains the nation's highest car insurance rates.

I'd be interested to see where that info is listed.

By no means the only place where these kind of results are filed, but here's a list (based on a driver quiz, but hey...it's a list :

http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/05/27/worst-drivers-in-america-by-state/

I do note that Rhode Island made the top 5 in the list (and I can't disagree with the poor showing by Hawaii drivers), I do think they over-rated Alabama by saying they're only the 21st worst (this two-wheeled afficionado had way too many close-calls in that state in the past year)...

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T19:03:21+00:00

swodom wrote at 25 Jul 2010 02:03 PM GMT: For even worse drivers, visit South Florida. It's a tepid mix of rude yankee retirees who are too old to drive (but do so anyway) and third world immigrants who imported their ignorance of road signs and traffic laws.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-25T20:05:11+00:00

GatorSailor43 wrote at 25 Jul 2010 03:05 PM GMT:

swodom wrote:

For even worse drivers, visit South Florida. It's a tepid mix of rude yankee retirees who are too old to drive (but do so anyway) and third world immigrants who imported their ignorance of road signs and traffic laws.

Yes, but South Florida doesn't have snow

Professional :: Newport Drivers (reply)

2010-07-25T20:25:22+00:00

gilbysr wrote at 25 Jul 2010 03:25 PM GMT:

GatorSailor43 wrote:

Just started this thread because I live literally three miles from the base and every day I seem to have a near miss with someone who:

(1) Stops the flow of traffic to allow someone else to turn left in front of them
(2) Has no idea what a roundabout is or that THE OUTSIDE LANE IS A TURN ONLY LANE
(3) Decides that he or she can make an immediate left turn at a light when it turns even if it doesn't have an arrow

There are more, but I don't want to keep rambling. Anyone else have any blatantly bad Newport driving stories?

PS I have Rhode Island plates and most of the people I see doing this stupid stuff also have them.

The best is when someone wants to make a left turn onto a road - they pull halfway out into the road to stop traffic from one direction and wait until traffic clears in the lane they are trying to turn into. My favorite counter tactic: maintain speed and then slam on your brakes and stop inches from their door. Two drawbacks however...don;t do it with your wife in the car, she gets very angry. Many Newporters are elderly and you may cause the other driver to drop dead from a heart attack.
_________________
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T00:51:07+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 25 Jul 2010 07:51 PM GMT:

irishpennant wrote:

I would open that letter to all of New England. I thought Norfokkers were bad, but it's insane up there.

Please relate stories from Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine to back that statement up. Dont make the same mistake that many Massholes do and think the entire world extends from Lawerence to Quincy.

Vr
Northern New Englander.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T01:13:00+00:00

SWORES wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:13 PM GMT: Tell you what, I was always amazed by a manuever that I saw frequently on Maryland freeways, and very rarely anywhere else.

Driver comes up the onramp and merges onto a 6 or 8 lane freeway, and proceeds to move all the way to the far left lane in one quick motion. "Changing lanes" would be less accurate than calling it a sharp left turn followed by a sharp right turn--at 80mph.

Driver then immediately realizes that his exit is coming up in < 1/2 miles. Repeat death-defying simultaneous multi-lane change in opposite direction, right to the off-ramp.

Whenever I saw some bonehead pull that anywhere in the beltway area, it was always a Maryland plate. Rarely see that particular maneuver elsewhere.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T01:18:49+00:00

thegoodsailorsvejk wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:18 PM GMT:

SWORES wrote:

Tell you what, I was always amazed by a manuever that I saw frequently on Maryland freeways, and very rarely anywhere else.

Driver comes up the onramp and merges onto a 6 or 8 lane freeway, and proceeds to move all the way to the far left lane in one quick motion. "Changing lanes" would be less accurate than calling it a sharp left turn followed by a sharp right turn--at 80mph.

Driver then immediately realizes that his exit is coming up in < 1/2 miles. Repeat death-defying simultaneous multi-lane change in opposite direction, right to the off-ramp.

Whenever I saw some bonehead pull that anywhere in the beltway area, it was always a Maryland plate. Rarely see that particular maneuver elsewhere.

sounds like good old houston.
_________________
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Rio, voc� foi feito pra mim

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T01:47:44+00:00

Angryman wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:47 PM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

irishpennant wrote:

I would open that letter to all of New England. I thought Norfokkers were bad, but it's insane up there.

You're right....it doesn't go from Lawrence to Quincy. It's Nashua to Fall River (Rivah) and Boston to Bellingham. Outside of that area, they're useless.....especially the ass-backwards hicks from Vermont.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T02:01:08+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 25 Jul 2010 09:01 PM GMT:

Angryman wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

irishpennant wrote:

I would open that letter to all of New England. I thought Norfokkers were bad, but it's insane up there.

Angry how many time I have to tell you. You are confusing "the world" with "where can Angryman pick up tranny hookers". Hence your definition of "useless".
_________________
A new life awaits you in the Off-CONUS colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure, new climate, recreational facilities, absolutely free. Lets go to the Colonies! This announcement brought to you by KBR.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T04:13:55+00:00

War Eagle wrote at 25 Jul 2010 11:13 PM GMT:

SWOhioan wrote:

I'd be interested to see where that info is listed.

Looks like at least one source places Providence at #5:

Quote:

1. Newark, New Jersey � $2,749 average annual premium (up 9.7% or $242 from January 2009)
2. New Orleans, Louisiana � $2,423 (down 7.9% or $208)
3. Wilmington, Delaware � $2,391 (down 4% or $100)
4. Baltimore, Maryland � $2,328 (up 6.2% or $135)
5. Providence, Rhode Island � $2,249 (down 8.9% or $220)
6. Louisville, Kentucky � $2,102 (up 5.2% or $103)
7. Huntington, West Virginia � $2,076 (down 0.8% or $17)
8. Jacksonville, Florida � $2,074 (up 0.6% or $12)
9. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania � $2,071 (down 9.6% or $220)
10. Bridgeport, Connecticut � $2,042 (down 2.3% or $49)
11. Detroit, Michigan � $1,998 (down 5.7% or $120)
12. Las Vegas, Nevada � $1,946 (down 10.8% or $236).

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T11:39:23+00:00

Anathema wrote at 26 Jul 2010 06:39 AM GMT:

thegoodsailorsvejk wrote:

SWORES wrote:

sounds like good old houston.

That'd be from the influx of Yahhhhhhnkeeees in the '90s and early '00s.
_________________
[b:1d9642cc59](NOUO)[/b:1d9642cc59] This post is classified Non Official Use Only.

So then, should anyone have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T12:53:10+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 26 Jul 2010 07:53 AM GMT:

irishpennant wrote:

MIWSWO wrote:

How about that elegant Susse Chalet? Now there is prime example of ripping off the government.

Normal 'Q rooms don't have kitchens. I've heard that some of the fancy-pants rooms do, but I've never actually seen one.

Back to the thread- I got t-boned in Newport back in '99 by a lady who chose to come out of a parking lot into traffic on Broadway- hit my bright blue pickup truck which always has the headlights on- I know she saw me. While waiting for the cops, she asked why I didn't stop for her (damn Navy comes into town and thinks they own the place). I suggested that we call that "obstructing traffic" where I am from, and it was illegal and dangerous. The cop got there, spoke to her, and when he talked to me, the first question he asked me was "Why didn't you stop for her?"
_________________
The impossible can become possible, if you're awesome. -"Rhino"

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T13:58:28+00:00

vmicheng wrote at 26 Jul 2010 08:58 AM GMT: I find that most drivers frustrate me, because of course, I am an excellent driver.

There are some things that would make getting around a lot easier, though.

- If you are merging into traffic on a limited access highway, the acceleration lane means positive acceleration. Merge into traffic at the speed that traffic is moving. Can't tell you how many times here in VA I have nearly rear-ended a clown who stopped on the onramp while I was looking over my left shoulder to time my emergence into the moving traffic stream.

- If you are in the left lane and are driving right next to a car on your right for miles and miles and miles while you yak on your cellphone and there is a car right behind you, and a string of cars 6 miles long behind that one, for chrissake move over to the right! I am trying to pass you so I can get home today. There are also those who signal their desire to pass you by flashing their headlights at you (as on the autobahn), often in frustration. I don't generally subscribe to this method here in the US, but I think it is considerate to yield the lane. This simple thing, kindly yielding the lane for a moment, practiced routinely, would cure 60% of traffic backups in most busy areas.

- Don't hang out in another car's blind spot. That goes double for you yahoos if you are on a motorcycle. Move ahead or astern so the other driver sees and remains aware of you. I know, I know; that's where your cruise control has you stuck. Trust me, we'll all live a little longer if you just goose it for a few seconds and move ahead to make sure you are seen. Also a good idea not to change lanes into another car's blind spot, particularly in heavy traffic.

- Signal. SIGNAL! Use your daggone turn signal, and don't wait to flick it on as you put the helm down in one smooth action. Wallowing around in the road without signaling while you yak on your cell phone is not courteous or safe. Vehicles who brake first and then signal are not providing sufficient information either. It's kind of like sounding 3 short blasts after you have already backed down. I'm not sure NAPA stocks turn signal bulbs here, because no one has ever burned one out.

- Don't text and drive. For that matter, don't do anything else and drive! I know, it's already illegal. Doesn't seem to help much. I drive 75 miles a day, and I can't tell you how many people, daily, use their commute to put on makeup, read the paper, browse powerpoint briefs, send and receive text messages/email on their dingleberry phones, etc. I see them clutching these phone/PDA things in their hands, completely unable to let them go. I suspect these people take them into the shower with them too, just so they won't miss a particularly important tweet from another twit.

There are other things that bother me about your driving while you are in my way, but these are the most trenchant.

Now pay attention, and get out of my way!
_________________
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T14:09:47+00:00

superswodork wrote at 26 Jul 2010 09:09 AM GMT: Actually, I think in RI it is a law that the first car in the line can make a left turn when the light turns green with no arrow. I never tried it since I thought it was a little crazy, but I seem to remember that it's legit up there.

In one particular angry incident at a four way stop, I arrived at the same time as the car to my right. I waved them forward and they went across the intersection. Then I proceeded to cross. Out of nowhere, a dude coming from my right runs the stop sign and almost T-bones me. I slam on my brakes. The dude is old. He must not have seen the stop sign, I think to myself. Then this old guys gets out of his car and stands in the middle of the intersection and flicks ME off. Had I not been in uniform it would have been on like Donkey Kong.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T14:38:07+00:00

War Eagle wrote at 26 Jul 2010 09:38 AM GMT: After driving on the autobahn for the last month or so I've noticed that the german drivers ALWAYS get over to let people merge when they enter from a ramp. It is refreshing...you can accelerate up the ramp knowing that there will be a space for you when you get to the main road.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T14:46:11+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 26 Jul 2010 09:46 AM GMT:

vmicheng wrote:

If you are in the left lane and are driving right next to a car on your right for miles and miles and miles while you yak on your cellphone and there is a car right behind you, and a string of cars 6 miles long behind that one, for chrissake move over to the right! I am trying to pass you so I can get home today. There are also those who signal their desire to pass you by flashing their headlights at you (as on the autobahn), often in frustration. I don't generally subscribe to this method here in the US, but I think it is considerate to yield the lane. This simple thing, kindly yielding the lane for a moment, practiced routinely, would cure 60% of traffic backups in most busy areas.

The practice of not driving in the left lane if you're not passing is required by law in some states, including VA. http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/right.html
_________________
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T15:11:17+00:00

CruDes4Life wrote at 26 Jul 2010 10:11 AM GMT:

vmicheng wrote:

I find that most drivers frustrate me, because of course, I am an excellent driver.

There are some things that would make getting around a lot easier, though.

- If you are merging into traffic on a limited access highway, the acceleration lane means positive acceleration. Merge into traffic at the speed that traffic is moving. Can't tell you how many times here in VA I have nearly rear-ended a clown who stopped on the onramp while I was looking over my left shoulder to time my emergence into the moving traffic stream.

- If you are in the left lane and are driving right next to a car on your right for miles and miles and miles while you yak on your cellphone and there is a car right behind you, and a string of cars 6 miles long behind that one, for chrissake move over to the right! I am trying to pass you so I can get home today. There are also those who signal their desire to pass you by flashing their headlights at you (as on the autobahn), often in frustration. I don't generally subscribe to this method here in the US, but I think it is considerate to yield the lane. This simple thing, kindly yielding the lane for a moment, practiced routinely, would cure 60% of traffic backups in most busy areas.

- Signal. SIGNAL! Use your daggone turn signal, and don't wait to flick it on as you put the helm down in one smooth action. Wallowing around in the road without signaling while you yak on your cell phone is not courteous or safe. Vehicles who brake first and then signal are not providing sufficient information either. It's kind of like sounding 3 short blasts after you have already backed down. I'm not sure NAPA stocks turn signal bulbs here, because no one has ever burned one out.

There are other things that bother me about your driving while you are in my way, but these are the most trenchant.

Now pay attention, and get out of my way!

I agree that at least 70% of drivers have no concept of how to merge -- whether they're on the on-ramp or travelling in the right lane (where the merging occurs). I constantly exhort people to apply more pressure to that rectangular pedal on the right!!

I also encourage people all the time to exercise their God-given right to be an idiot in the RIGHT lane....not the left! As my son's law enforcement instructor told him, "If you're being passed on the right, you're always wrong!"

I also told my boys when they were learning to drive: if you're going to do something stupid, at least announce it to the world using your turn signal! At least if I see an idiot coming, I can try to avoid getting dinged in the process.

War Eagle wrote:

After driving on the autobahn for the last month or so I've noticed that the german drivers ALWAYS get over to let people merge when they enter from a ramp. It is refreshing...you can accelerate up the ramp knowing that there will be a space for you when you get to the main road.

That's because the German police will and do give tickets for failure to comply with that law. We need more of that in the States. I did notice when driving to Millington that Tennessee drivers seem to be much better about it than Virginians.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T15:23:20+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 26 Jul 2010 10:23 AM GMT:

CruDes4Life wrote:

War Eagle wrote:

I can't speak for TN, but VA law requires that merging traffic yield to vehicles already on the freeway. http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/pdf/dmv39.pdf (page 15) It seems like common decency would indicate that if you're on the freeway, and you have room, you should move over.

Another thing to consider is the "Move Over and Slow Down" laws requiring drivers to keep a safe distance from police/emergency workers who have someone pulled over. http://www.moveoveramerica.com/
_________________
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T15:54:50+00:00

Blackbeard wrote at 26 Jul 2010 10:54 AM GMT:

Bigmouth wrote:

vmicheng wrote:

The practice of not driving in the left lane if you're not passing is required by law in some states, including VA. http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/right.html

It's obviously not enforced. Lived in VA for 6 years until recently--both Hampton Roads and NoVA. While living there I spent two weeks in the UK driving. I told folks I was entirely comfortable driving there because in the DC-area it's entirely common to drive in the left lane and pass on the right!

BT

I've always understood that merging traffic shall yield, but as a courtesy traffic in the right lane should move over if possible.

Courtesy...now there's a concept.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T16:02:29+00:00

Homer J. wrote at 26 Jul 2010 11:02 AM GMT: Now this is a great thread!

My days at SWOS DIVO are peppered with stories of bad RI drivers. Lived up by the Tennis Hall of Fame, so going to class every day was an adventure.

When we went to DH school, I told all of the SanDog SWOS DIVO grads to beware, because they were in for a treat.

Lived down by the Point for the subsequent tour there, so the commute was much shorter...perhaps the locals were still asleep.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T16:33:45+00:00

capn george wrote at 26 Jul 2010 11:33 AM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

irishpennant wrote:

I would open that letter to all of New England. I thought Norfokkers were bad, but it's insane up there.

with you Star- where I grew up many(Maine) folks considered all points south of Fenway park "the Deep South".
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T16:39:11+00:00

Anathema wrote at 26 Jul 2010 11:39 AM GMT:

capn george wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

irishpennant wrote:

I would open that letter to all of New England. I thought Norfokkers were bad, but it's insane up there.

with you Star- where I grew up many(Maine) folks considered all points south of Fenway park "the Deep South".

You must have grown up around Portland... Folks just a bit farther north think Boston is a faiytale.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T16:45:09+00:00

capn george wrote at 26 Jul 2010 11:45 AM GMT: Within earshot of Portland Head fog signal...
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T16:50:26+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 26 Jul 2010 11:50 AM GMT:

capn george wrote:

Within earshot of Portland Head fog signal...

"Bawhhhhhh, yep."

http://lighthouse.cc/portlandhead/foghorn.mov
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T17:23:32+00:00

LSUTIGER wrote at 26 Jul 2010 12:23 PM GMT: There is absolutely nothing more frustrating than a 4 way stop in Newport. You face 2 extremes. Either no one actually stops, or everyone is so concerned with waiving others through that no one actually proceeds in the order that they arrived causing mass confusion.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T18:10:17+00:00

Jezabelle wrote at 26 Jul 2010 01:10 PM GMT: It's the only place where I have ever been "FRONT Ended"! Yes, backed into in an intersection! That includes Afghanistan!

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T18:27:27+00:00

Anathema wrote at 26 Jul 2010 01:27 PM GMT:

capn george wrote:

Within earshot of Portland Head fog signal...

Ha! I knew it!

Seriously - there are probably more folks in central and northern Maine who have never left the state than most any place else.

And, frankly, the other states are thankful for that.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T18:46:25+00:00

capn george wrote at 26 Jul 2010 01:46 PM GMT:

Anathema wrote:

capn george wrote:

Within earshot of Portland Head fog signal...

Ha! I knew it!

Seriously - there are probably more folks in central and northern Maine who have never left the state than most any place else.

And, frankly, the other states are thankful for that.

Apparently you've met my relatives from Down East as well!!
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-26T23:11:43+00:00

ekim11 wrote at 26 Jul 2010 06:11 PM GMT: Two weeks ago I tried to merge onto I-64 and this car was stopped with a blinker on trying to merge at the end of the entrance ramp. With a delta speed of 55-60 mph you need a huge gap to get in that people just do not get. I always accelerate to slightly faster than traffic then I get to choose when to get in. You'll always be able to merge as people don't want to get hit. In this instance I was looking over the left shoulder as someone stated and I almost rear ended him at 60 mph. I had to go around on his right using the shoulder to avoid hitting him and then I merged just fine. That azz-clown had the nerve to lay on his horn at me though. I wonder sometimes if these people even realize just how dumb they are. Their parents should have done better.

Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T01:03:30+00:00

curtis wrote at 26 Jul 2010 08:03 PM GMT:

ekim11 wrote:

Two weeks ago I tried to merge onto I-64 and this car was stopped with a blinker on trying to merge at the end of the entrance ramp. With a delta speed of 55-60 mph you need a huge gap to get in that people just do not get. I always accelerate to slightly faster than traffic then I get to choose when to get in. You'll always be able to merge as people don't want to get hit. In this instance I was looking over the left shoulder as someone stated and I almost rear ended him at 60 mph. I had to go around on his right using the shoulder to avoid hitting him and then I merged just fine. That azz-clown had the nerve to lay on his horn at me though. I wonder sometimes if these people even realize just how dumb they are. Their parents should have done better.

THAT WAS YOU!!!????

Just kidding... I've had that experience (passing a stopped merger on the shoulder, not being passed in said manner.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T01:03:39+00:00

curtis wrote at 26 Jul 2010 08:03 PM GMT:

ekim11 wrote:

THAT WAS YOU!!!????

Just kidding... I've had that experience (passing a stopped merger on the shoulder, not being passed in said manner.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T01:47:02+00:00

SaltyDog wrote at 26 Jul 2010 08:47 PM GMT:
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T10:42:24+00:00

Mini-Me wrote at 27 Jul 2010 05:42 AM GMT:

ekim11 wrote:

One of the problems I've noticed on 64 since we moved here last year is that the majority of the cloverleafs do not have enough room to accelerate (or safely merge into to get off the highway) - I think this is why the US 17 exit in Chesapeake always gets backed up. Poor highway design that is even worse decades later with much increased traffic flow.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T12:58:47+00:00

Bigmouth wrote at 27 Jul 2010 07:58 AM GMT:

ekim11 wrote:

Was that the airport ramp? (Norview onto 64 Eastbound) That one's terrible, and the cause of plenty of near-misses. The off-ramp from 64 Westbound to Norview isn't any better, with that stupid STOP SIGN at the end of the ramp, around a blind corner...
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T14:56:07+00:00

vmicheng wrote at 27 Jul 2010 09:56 AM GMT:

Bigmouth wrote:

ekim11 wrote:

VDOT never saw an intersection they couldn't screw up. I have seen plenty of places where they actually decreased the length of the acceleration lane. There are many other places where they took a merge and turned it into a "T" intersection too! Also, check out the new Battlefield Blvd/I-64 interchange. Crazy. Maybe we can get some RI-style round-abouts here too.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T15:36:32+00:00

cubsfan13 wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:36 AM GMT: Also love the fact that stretches of 138 (mostly a 4-lane, divided highway) have rediculously low speed limits, thanks to the residents of Jamestown.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T15:39:56+00:00

Bilgediver wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:39 AM GMT: We were promised flying cars by now - that's the problem! If we had the flying cars we wouldn't have all these traffic issues!
http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2001-12/looking-back-henry-fords-flivver

Popular Science wrote:

Our report also subtly refers to Ford's interest in the "plane-car." "Mark my word. A combination airplane and motor car is coming. You may smile. But it will come," the great automotive pioneer is reputed to have been still predicting in 1940.

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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T16:00:02+00:00

Mini-Me wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:00 AM GMT:

Bilgediver wrote:

We were promised flying cars by now - that's the problem! If we had the flying cars we wouldn't have all these traffic issues!

Roads? Where we're going, we don't need ROADS!!!
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T16:08:31+00:00

Philthethrill wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:08 AM GMT:

Bigmouth wrote:

ekim11 wrote:

THANK you. HATE those intersections.
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Professional :: Open Letter to Newport, RI (reply)

2010-07-27T16:10:22+00:00

Philthethrill wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:10 AM GMT:

Bilgediver wrote:

We were promised flying cars by now - that's the problem! If we had the flying cars we wouldn't have all these traffic issues!
http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2001-12/looking-back-henry-fords-flivver

Popular Science wrote:

We were [also] promised jetpacks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5ZhBAylbN4
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question

2010-07-25T00:39:51+00:00

Albert Brocolli wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:39 PM GMT: True or false: if you secure steering units, the rudder swing checks for RMD purposes are void and must be redone.

There is a debate raging here about the requirements and we're looking for something in writing to confirm what has been standard practice in my experience.

My entire career its been understood that once the swing checks are complete you don't secure any of the units or the test of the system at operating pressure is no longer valid.

The A-Gang khaki on my new ship don't believe that is necessary and routinely conduct swing checks the day before u/w, secure all units, then restart units about an hour before u/w. Are we violating the regs?
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T00:57:31+00:00

MIWSWO wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:57 PM GMT: Seeing your rank, I am assuming that you are either the CO or XO - either way, you have a lot of influence. Not securing makes sense - anyway, what does the A-gang gain by securing the system after swing checks? What does it take away from them by leaving them running? My bet is that A-gang gains nothing by securing and doesn't take away from their manpower or tasks by leaving them running. Now if this is a bet of some sorts and the leave them on/turn them off issue is resolved - I would go to the PMS card. This is what INSURV uses as their standard and it probably will say at the end of the card that the system must remain running after checks are complete - if not, then a feed back report is warranted.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T01:13:37+00:00

Anathema wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:13 PM GMT: PMS card - I don't recall it speaking to securing other than as part of the check.

Standing Orders - can say anything you want and can be the definitive reference.

Looking forward to hearing if there is a ref on keeping them on as that practice is outside my experience.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T01:53:21+00:00

CruDes4Life wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:53 PM GMT: It's been a while since I looked at the card...but what's the periodicity on the check? Is it an R-check? If so, what are the requirements? That should dictate.

Concur with setting the command policy -- and good engineering practice would say to leave them on after the check (on 4 ships and 4 years as a CHENG, I never saw them turned off after pre-underway checks).

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T08:29:55+00:00

Bitter End wrote at 25 Jul 2010 03:29 AM GMT: Sir- It is still an R check and it is to be accomplished within 24 hours of getting underway, within 24 hours of entering port and prior to replenishment at sea operations. The check only tells you at the end to restore system/equipment to readiness condition. The PMS card does not address your question nor does my class ship EOSS. My EN1 and I just looked through the tech manual, at only the HPU operational testing chapter and found nothing either. We addressed this a few years back when we had an ENC telling us the same thing. He wanted to turn them off. We had always left them on because it makes good engineering sense. Cheng and I agreed and won of course. There may be something in some ref that answers the question outright, but to us you are testing them for an evolution requiring Max Reliability. That is the readiness condition we determined to be testing for so that is the readiness condition we left them in. All four units running. Sorry I can only share what we do and not have more of a hard answer.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T09:47:40+00:00

EnsignwithPen wrote at 25 Jul 2010 04:47 AM GMT: Going back to my AUXO days on USS FIRSTSHIP, we started out shutting them down after completing the checks. New CO came in and that stopped. That was a fun morning, trying to get steering checks completed in an hour.

BT

Unless 5600 R-7 has changed (it's been two years since I looked at it), the card doesn't say one way or another. I think it ends with the obligatory "return to readiness condition".

The logic as I have always understood it, is that when you shut the HPUs down after the checks, you invalidate the checks. This isn't what the card says, but I understand the logic, and kind of agree with it.

The A-Gang logic for shutting them off (at least my LPO's logic, which was usually pretty good), is that otherwise you have an unmonitored system running that will only be checked once an hour-plenty of time for things to go wrong. My expertise is on DDGs, and I can say that there are two places where indications of the status of the HPUs go-the BSU on the bridge and the ASU in Aft Steering itself. The EOOW doesn't get any alerts at his console.
Now, if you're underway and something goes wrong, not a big deal. You have people on the bridge who can notify the EOOW, who can notify the on watch ASM, and you can respond quickly. If you're in port-not so much. If something goes wrong, you may not get somebody to notice a problem for a while. You have to hope Sounding and Security/IEM catch it on their hourly visit to that space. Since it doesn't SAY that the HPUs have to be on, why take the risk? I can understand this logic, as well.

Personally, I've defaulted to leave 'em on, and most people agree with that. I don't see a problem until someone melts an HPU that leaked all its oil out, which kind of is the problem, actually.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T13:54:22+00:00

NukeCDR wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:54 AM GMT: Be careful about letting the steering units run in recirc for extended periods of time in hot climates. You may find they start to trip off on overtemp at inopportune times.

I see no problem in performing the check and securing them. I can't think of any good engineering reason for leaving them on other than a "warm fuzzy" if you're nervous about them not running properly even though you just tested them.

I would bet that if we get in a routine of having both steering units online for extended periods of time we'll start to see steering casualty rates increase, not decrease due to excessive wear with the HPU operating in an idle condition.

However, like it was note above - put in a FBR and get the real answer. Until you get that answer do whatever you want to do. Worst that will happen is your engineers will think you're overly conservative.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T18:26:21+00:00

MIWSWO wrote at 25 Jul 2010 01:26 PM GMT:

Quote:

"return to readiness condition"

Not trying to win you over to "leave them on", just my definition of this statement is that the system is ready to function as designed - i.e. I go turn the helm, rudders move. No, "oh wait, need to turn the system on first" - that is not ready.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T18:33:13+00:00

LEDHEAD wrote at 25 Jul 2010 01:33 PM GMT: Last ship was DDG. We did the R check and then secured.

I do not think leaving them running buys you anything other than more run time on the gear.

If you lost shore power after the swing checks would you redo them all? If yes then does loss of shorepower invalidate MLOCs that have been performed? Do you start from scratch since you would never REALLY know what the latest status is/was? Perhaps the loss of power damaged something and now it won't start....Yeah, hyperbole I know...but leaving the units running seems to be trifling.

If you are going to leave all units running ensure your CORD flow rates are correct for the coolers. EOSS does not provide the information IRT the CORDS. SIB does. Most people do not even know they (CORDS) exist and then wonder why the units overheat.

OBTW, how do you keep track of when you last conducted checks with LCU...master/slave option? I have seen some ships with a placard down in steering and some use a log book for LCU tracking.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T19:02:40+00:00

mangotree wrote at 25 Jul 2010 02:02 PM GMT: So you just come home from a long underway. You get a ride to your house and you turn on your car and run it for some minutes to make sure everything is in working order before you drive it to work tomorrow.

Do you:

a. secure the vehicle after testing
b. leave it running all night

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T19:45:12+00:00

banzai wrote at 25 Jul 2010 02:45 PM GMT: From personal experience of a second-tour CHENG:
LEAVE THEM ON.

The last line of the card says it all - if they are secured, they are not ready. In my opinion based on embarrassing day-of-underway situations, yes, you should do them again. Also depends on what your CO standing orders/pre-underway checklist states. Can't remember what MLOC said off the top of my head.

Another point is that my fully-cg-moded ship's units we cooled by chill water, but those with sea water/firemain cooled units should take note of drawbacks above.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T21:20:26+00:00

Fail2Sail wrote at 25 Jul 2010 04:20 PM GMT:

banzai wrote:

From personal experience of a second-tour CHENG:
LEAVE THEM ON.

The last line of the card says it all - if they are secured, they are not ready. In my opinion based on embarrassing day-of-underway situations, yes, you should do them again. Also depends on what your CO standing orders/pre-underway checklist states. Can't remember what MLOC said off the top of my head.

Another point is that my fully-cg-moded ship's units we cooled by chill water, but those with sea water/firemain cooled units should take note of drawbacks above.

I can see both sides, but since you're a second tour CHENG, it must be so.

FYI, MLOC tells you when and what check...the check itself still tells you how to complete the check and where to return once complete.

The definition of "readiness condition" is fairly ambiguous, much like many EOSS statements, because I believe it's designed to be applied with what is known as "common sense." If you are not underway, but merely getting ready for underway...then your condition of readiness is very different than while underway prior to UNREP. So I can understand following a card verbatim and coming up with the decision to turn them off.

Now, that being said, I have rarely ran into gear that just crapped out while in operation. It's usually during startup, shutdown, or sometime close to either of those situations. Mechanical things like to be run, much like your generators and A/C's don't like running with low demand. Keeps your seals lubed, lets you get to a nice steady state as well. As the system was designed to be a continuous-run system, even in recirc, I also think the overheating argument is a bit of a stretch too...though obviously situationally dependent.

So while there's nothing that says you can't shut them down...I'm finding it difficult to come up with a good reason other than "because you can." Leave 'em on.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T22:26:35+00:00

MrSwo wrote at 25 Jul 2010 05:26 PM GMT:

Fail2Sail wrote:

Now, that being said, I have rarely ran into gear that just crapped out while in operation. It's usually during startup, shutdown, or sometime close to either of those situations. Mechanical things like to be run, much like your generators and A/C's don't like running with low demand. Keeps your seals lubed, lets you get to a nice steady state as well. As the system was designed to be a continuous-run system, even in recirc, I also think the overheating argument is a bit of a stretch too...though obviously situationally dependent.
.

^^^^^^^
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-25T22:45:30+00:00

TXsteve wrote at 25 Jul 2010 05:45 PM GMT: I am really kinda suprised that many people leave them running. I always did checks and then shut them down. I have been on a lot of different ships and always just shut them down inport after the check. We would start them a couple of hours prior to underway to make sure they were warmed up, but other than that no. But there is nothing I have ever been able to find that says to do otherwise.

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T00:23:08+00:00

spamalot wrote at 25 Jul 2010 07:23 PM GMT: Seen it done both ways. Was taught to leave them running, but was told on USS last ship that securing them was not a problem. The only time steering held us up from getting U/W was when it was secured the night before which tells me that if it is working and aligned correctly, leave it alone. If it overheats without a load, there is a bigger problem.

The problem with leaving it running is that the duty section may not have someone roving the space that is qualified to operate the equipment after steering checks are done (training could fix this if it applies to your ship). On small ships in six section duty, duty A-gang may be ENFN. I recall EN1 coming in the night before to do the checks with ENFN.

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T00:31:36+00:00

GoIrishGo wrote at 25 Jul 2010 07:31 PM GMT: Twice an AUXO (FFG, LHD) and once a DDG Cheng (N4 after that... javascript:emoticon('')) :
- prior to unrep: leave 'em running (of course)
- prior to pulling in: same
- day prior to u/w: test and then shut down.

FWIW, the part that drove me the most batty about swing checks was getting the rudder stop angles correct. On the older steering gear (FFG style), that required disassembling the trick wheel rudder angle indicators and resetting stops in there - definitely tech rep work.

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T00:44:21+00:00

Maindeck wrote at 25 Jul 2010 07:44 PM GMT: Leaving them on adds unnecessary heat generation and is not normal operation for steering units. The R-Check is to verify that the followup and individual units function. It has been a long time since steering units were problematic. Trust your equipment, but follow common sense/EOSS.....
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T00:47:06+00:00

Anathema wrote at 25 Jul 2010 07:47 PM GMT: For my money, I'll go with the Nuke and the two LDOs who were also ATG assessors...
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T01:51:13+00:00

banzai wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:51 PM GMT: The biggest reason that I left them on was because my A-gangers couldn't be trusted to realign them properly the day of underway if they were shut down following rudder swing checks. YMMV, but regardless of interpretation of the PMS card, leaving them running resulted in fewer embarrassing situations during sea and anchor detail. I trusted the equipment, just not the operators.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T06:53:46+00:00

Fail2Sail wrote at 26 Jul 2010 01:53 AM GMT:

Maindeck wrote:

Leaving them on adds unnecessary heat generation and is not normal operation for steering units. The R-Check is to verify that the followup and individual units function. It has been a long time since steering units were problematic. Trust your equipment, but follow common sense/EOSS.....

Sir, truly the job of a CO is to respect and trust your equipment. The job of your CHENG is to never trust anything. Exaggeration? Yes...however, not far off.

I really think it has to do with your CO. There were many things that ended up judgement calls, such as this one, where it made no sense from an engineering standpoint (but didn't affect operation), the lack of a discussion relieved the CO of "one more thing to think about." My job was simple: never have the CO ever think about Engineering. If the CO is focusing on navigation, tactical situation, and other far more important things, then they're doing their job...not mine. So if I run a pump in recirc for 12 hours so I can have the ability to say, "don't worry, every thing on the checklist is operational, sat, and has been purring like a kitten all night," I'm sold. If it wasn't an appropriate way to run the pump it would have a note, or warning that said something like, "when not in underway operation, secure after completion."

I trusted my people a heck of a lot more than banzai seems to...and even then there were always those random slip-ups. That one time you didn't run it for several hours before underway and got the "WTF?" is one time too many. One glitch in the system that requires a re-test now makes it not just the EN's problems, but the CHENG, the NAV, the SN on the bridge running the check instead of doing his S/A stuff...etc.

There are plenty of similar judgment calls that are similarly irrelevant, for instance I used to have an EN check the CO's water heater after his quarters was over each morning to make sure the CO would have a hot shower (timing just worked out perfectly). Was that heater supposed to work all the time? Yup. Did it? Nope. One simple 30 second detour for a guy saved all of us a dumb ass-chewing.

All this being said, I agree, shut them down is perfectly fine...just not what I did personally.
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T12:43:33+00:00

skipather wrote at 26 Jul 2010 07:43 AM GMT: easy solution, test them 1 hour prior to underway...
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Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T13:55:23+00:00

Anathema wrote at 26 Jul 2010 08:55 AM GMT:

skipather wrote:

easy solution, test them 1 hour prior to underway...

With ZERO time to correct any problems.

What's the purpose of the checks? Why are they required within 24 hours (vice, 1, 2, or 4)?

Applying logic, and ORM (gasp!), to those questions is how you end up with YOUR local answer.

Sometimes it's unreliable gear. Sometimes unreliable people. But, one should never take their just their own experience and universally apply it to the Fleet as somehow taking precedence over written Fleet procedures.
_________________
[b:1d9642cc59](NOUO)[/b:1d9642cc59] This post is classified Non Official Use Only.

So then, should anyone have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T15:10:36+00:00

txnavy wrote at 26 Jul 2010 10:10 AM GMT:

NukeCDR wrote:

I see no problem in performing the check and securing them. I can't think of any good engineering reason for leaving them on other than a "warm fuzzy" if you're nervous about them not running properly even though you just tested them.

+1

There is complex equipment out there with a history of poor performance under dynamic conditions, and EOSS and other sources direct them to stay online for a reason. Steering gear isn't one of them...there's a reason it hasn't changed much over decades. Note the lack of stories that begin with "I went to switch the steering gear on and..."
_________________
[b:050f6f62a7]"I want to die quietly in my sleep like my grandfather...not screaming like the passengers in his car!"[/b:050f6f62a7]

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-26T19:20:41+00:00

Cheng-san wrote at 26 Jul 2010 02:20 PM GMT: I agree with TXNavy, the NukeCDR, and the LDOs. I have seen it addressed in tailored EDORMs/Standing Orders both ways. Done the DDG ENG thing and we shut them down after completion of the checks since the normal operational configuration is two up online and two in aligned-standby. I cannot say with any air of certainty that the official publications dictate it so - I am not crusty enough and I do not have the pubs in front of me to reference.

Another place to check your assumptions is the EOSS for after steering. Look at the procedures and see if it has lines about starting offline units so many minutes in advance to warm up fluids, etc. This will tell you that NAVSEA was expecting the units to be off after the R check. Then again, you may find nothing there to finally answer your question - You may want to contact the NAVSEA Technical Warrant holder for steering gear (sorry I do not have my list handy). They are ultimately the final say in these matters.
_________________
"Vision! What do you know 'bout my vision. My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you!" -- Huey Freeman

Professional :: Rudder Swing Checks Question (reply)

2010-07-27T13:18:01+00:00

LDOSNIPE wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:18 AM GMT: MLOC says to align, test and transfer control to the pilot house after shifting to ship's power.

PMS card says to return to readiness condition upon completion.

old crusty ENCM says secure the damn things after the PMS check is complete and start them IAW MLOC
_________________
same same, but different

Professional :: COMNAVSURFLANT WATERFRONT NAVIGATION SEMINAR (reply)

2010-07-24T10:31:52+00:00

TheBigH wrote at 24 Jul 2010 05:31 AM GMT:

greyhound wrote:

skipather wrote:

capn george wrote:

Maybe invite the MSC Second Mates, for the LSD-41 class billets?

no need, they are licensed professionals...

Might need them to help teach the seminar.....

Instructor duty is in fact a valid overtime code.

Professional :: COMNAVSURFLANT WATERFRONT NAVIGATION SEMINAR (reply)

2010-07-24T15:28:09+00:00

ShooterMcED wrote at 24 Jul 2010 10:28 AM GMT:

SWOCISSP wrote:

Angryman wrote:

Anyone else catch the line about target audiences being for S&A OOD's (among others)? It's about time to reopen the A-1R for the special evolution A-team vs. whichever section is on deck.

+1 this was my first thought. If you qualify someone as OOD you better damn well be sure they are good enough to take a ship to sea! The special evolution OOD needs to go away. Give everyone else a chance to prove themselves.

My S&A OOD's are whomever's watch is on deck, same with conning officers. THe team that is on deck gets it. A-Team mentality leads to a crisis an ineptitude when people transfer. 30 Lashes for the one who wrote the message to teh fleet!

Professional :: COMNAVSURFLANT WATERFRONT NAVIGATION SEMINAR (reply)

2010-07-24T23:27:21+00:00

mbitrd wrote at 24 Jul 2010 06:27 PM GMT:

ShooterMcED wrote:

SWOCISSP wrote:

Angryman wrote:

Anyone else catch the line about target audiences being for S&A OOD's (among others)? It's about time to reopen the A-1R for the special evolution A-team vs. whichever section is on deck.

Of my regrets on my time in the right hand chair, this is one of them. Granted the PC depth of bench was a unique item, but I should have done a better job in training/exposing the rest of the ship to those positions. I was not willing to accept the risk then, and wanted CHENG as EOOW, OPS on the charts, XO/WEPS driving and CMC on the Focs'le. Many years later I regret it, but then it made perfect sense to me.
_________________
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Professional :: COMNAVSURFLANT WATERFRONT NAVIGATION SEMINAR (reply)

2010-07-24T23:40:24+00:00

Anathema wrote at 24 Jul 2010 06:40 PM GMT: With time...I remember a Sea and Anchor detail where I looked around and I, as CO, was the only officer with a SWO pin on the bridge.

Oh, and the OOD, JOOD, and Conn were all OOD qualified. Gotta love modern SWOS.
_________________
[b:1d9642cc59](NOUO)[/b:1d9642cc59] This post is classified Non Official Use Only.

So then, should anyone have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

Professional :: COMNAVSURFLANT WATERFRONT NAVIGATION SEMINAR (reply)

2010-07-25T04:40:31+00:00

kupost wrote at 24 Jul 2010 11:40 PM GMT:

Anathema wrote:

With time...I remember a Sea and Anchor detail where I looked around and I, as CO, was the only officer with a SWO pin on the bridge.

Oh, and the OOD, JOOD, and Conn were all OOD qualified. Gotta love modern SWOS.

Was the XO doing the infamous surprise showing in Aft Steering?
_________________
I've got SWO but i'm not a SWOider

Rock, Chalk, Jayhawk

Professional :: Re: COMNAVSURFLANT WATERFRONT NAVIGATION SEMINAR (reply)

2010-07-26T08:02:44+00:00

JAFSWO wrote at 26 Jul 2010 03:02 AM GMT:

Quote:

RMKS/1. COMNAVSURFLANT ANNOUNCES AN ATG NORFOLK LED WATERFRONT
NAVIGATION SEMINAR ON 29 JUNE 2010 IN NORFOLK AT BUILDING CEP-86 AUDITORIUM. THE SEMINAR WILL RUN FROM 0800 TO 1530. DESIGNATED PERSONNEL OF ALL SHIPS INPORT NORFOLK AND LITTLE CREEK ARE REQUIRED TO ATTEND UNLESS EXEMPT BY CNSL POC. JUSTIFICATION REQUIRED.
2. THE THEME OF THE SEMINAR IS COMPLIANCE AND COMMUNICATION.
THE TRAINING IS FOCUSED TOWARDS IMPROVING NAVIGATION PERFORMANCE THROUGH PROCEDURAL COMPLIANCE IAW NAVDORM, BRIDGE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT, AND PROPER COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN BRIDGE AND COMBAT WATCHSTANDERS.
3. THE SCHEDULE IS:
- 0800-0805 KICK OFF SEMINAR (RADM THOMAS CNSL)
- 0805-0900 NAVDORM REQUIREMENTS
- 0900-0910 BREAK
- 0910-0950 PROPER NAVIGATION PROCEDURES
- 0950-1000 BREAK
- 1000-1100 EQUIPMENT KNOWLEDGE/OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS
- 1100-1200 COMMON ISSUES
- 1200-1300 LUNCH
AFTERNOON SESSIONS WILL BE 2 GROUPS (CO/XO/NAVO/LEADING QM
AND JUNIOR OFFICER AND ENLISTED). ONE GROUP WILL UTILIZE
CEP-86 AUDITORIUM, THE OTHER WILL UTILIZE CEP-183 AUDITORIUM.
- 1300-1430 CASE STUDIES
- 1430-1500 EXAM WILL BE GIVEN TO TWO GROUPS (DEPT HEADS AND
ABOVE, JUNIOR OFFICER AND BELOW)
- 1500-1530 EXAM REVIEW/WRAP-UP/DISCUSSION/QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
4. THE TARGET AUDIENCE FOR THE SEMINAR IS SHIPS' AFLOAT CO, XO,
NAVIGATOR, LEADING QM, QMOW, SEA AND ANCHOR DETAIL OODS AND PILOTING OFFICERS, AND STAFF NAV CERTIFICATION TEAM MEMBERS. OPTIONAL ATTENDEES ARE ALL QUALIFIED OODS, CICWO/WATCH SUPERVISORS.
5. CONTACT LT MCCULLAR OR QMCS GADDIST TO CONFIRM NUMBER OF
PERSONNEL THAT WILL BE ATTENDING NLT 25 JUN 10.//
BT

Another reason that I am glad I am on shore duty...
_________________
Words to the Wise:

"Keep it off the rocks at sea, and on the rocks ashore"

The Material World :: Transit Cost Estimator (reply)

2010-07-28T16:10:38+00:00

Anathema wrote at 28 Jul 2010 11:10 AM GMT: Came across this place the other day...might help others who are looking for some of this type of arcane information...

http://www.navyvamosc.com/
_________________
[b:1d9642cc59](NOUO)[/b:1d9642cc59] This post is classified Non Official Use Only.

So then, should anyone have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

The Material World :: Transit Cost Estimator (reply)

2010-07-28T17:17:15+00:00

Barnacle wrote at 28 Jul 2010 12:17 PM GMT: You need to speak with an MSC type about #3. My info is dated but when big Navy pays MSC for a TAO it's a sunk cost. MSC does not care if you steam that ship 1 day or 180 days it gets the same amount of money. Fuel cost is paid by the TYCOM and the big difference is the pot of money that would pay for costs associated with the BSF.

I salute your effort to understand the cost of operations though.

The Material World :: Transit Cost Estimator (reply)

2010-07-28T17:42:33+00:00

Mutineer wrote at 28 Jul 2010 12:42 PM GMT:

Barnacle wrote:

You need to speak with an MSC type about #3. My info is dated but when big Navy pays MSC for a TAO it's a sunk cost. MSC does not care if you steam that ship 1 day or 180 days it gets the same amount of money. Fuel cost is paid by the TYCOM and the big difference is the pot of money that would pay for costs associated with the BSF.

I salute your effort to understand the cost of operations though.

This is correct. These ships are timechartered, so you will need to find the TC rate per day as this is what the Navy is actually paying, not the operational cost. It will be different for each ship type I am sure.

The tricky part is that (most) fuel is not purchased the same way for government uses as it is commercially. From what I understand the fuel stored in the oiler is just what it is, stocked fuel. I believe the price the Navy pays for it is based on the daily market value of the product on the day that it is actually transferred to the vessel being replenished. In other words the Navy technically doesn't own these stocks. This explains why some replenishment top-offs are done on particular days when the market is low.

In some less frequent cases, fuel can be purchased commercially and the prices come out daily basis the location of (in port) delivery. Platt's Bunkerwire is the most globally accepted daily price assessment. I really don't think the world bunker market, however, could correlate to whatever deal or subsidy the government gets from its suppliers. You will definitely have to talk to a DLA or Supply person about what prices they pay.

I imagine though that like the rest of the world, these prices still fluctuate daily. I am interested to know what you come up with.

Good luck.

Career & Finance :: Navy Degree Completion Program question

2010-07-28T21:13:00+00:00

rushtonj wrote at 28 Jul 2010 04:13 PM GMT: Do any of you recruiter types have some info on the Navy Degree Completion Program you could send my way? Info in the interweb is pretty sparse.

My son is a junior at Sacramento State. He's interested in a Navy commission, but the nearest NROTC is a couple of hours away at Berkley.

Appreciate it.
_________________
�Covenants, without swords, are mere words.� � Hobbes, Leviathan

Career & Finance :: Navy Degree Completion Program question (reply)

2010-07-28T21:17:28+00:00

GatorGuy wrote at 28 Jul 2010 04:17 PM GMT: Try this link:
http://www.cnrc.navy.mil/miami/OPO/BDCP.htm
_________________
There are two kinds of ships in my Navy,
Amphibs - and their support.

Career & Finance :: Re: Navy Degree Completion Program question (reply)

2010-07-28T22:13:49+00:00

MrSwo wrote at 28 Jul 2010 05:13 PM GMT:

rushtonj wrote:

Do any of you recruiter types have some info on the Navy Degree Completion Program you could send my way? Info in the interweb is pretty sparse.

My son is a junior at Sacramento State. He's interested in a Navy commission, but the nearest NROTC is a couple of hours away at Berkley.

Appreciate it.

Not too late to apply: www.usna.edu
_________________
Cobra Kai wannabe

Career & Finance :: Re: Navy Degree Completion Program question (reply)

2010-07-28T23:51:38+00:00

rushtonj wrote at 28 Jul 2010 06:51 PM GMT:

MrSwo wrote:

rushtonj wrote:

Not too late to apply: www.usna.edu

I wish. He's only a fair student (3.3 GPA, but struggles with math). Lettered in three sports on High School, but only a pack+ athlete.
_________________
�Covenants, without swords, are mere words.� � Hobbes, Leviathan

Career & Finance :: Navy Degree Completion Program question (reply)

2010-07-29T03:15:35+00:00

legacymid wrote at 28 Jul 2010 10:15 PM GMT: Tell the Academy he only gets high when he doesn't know it, has 1/64 Eskimo in him, and will stop at 3 honor offenses, promise. That seems good enough.

Seriously though, that's far more qualified than half the kids in my classes.
_________________
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-24T10:18:08+00:00

War Eagle wrote at 24 Jul 2010 05:18 AM GMT:

Spades wrote:

Do you think that the JPME requirement prior to SELECTION for command for new YGs will push SWOs further away from wanting to attain command?

Not an issue after NAVADMIN 136/10...

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-24T12:20:01+00:00

seaag1 wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:20 AM GMT:

Anathema wrote:

MrSwo wrote:

I thought SWOCS was always about filling the DH gap, which was absolutely terrible inthe late 90s, and had nothing to do with XO/CO fill rates.

Doesnt seem teh community is lacking for bodies to fill as XO/COs

Ony because we are short on ships.

We are also short on O6s and O5s...

Lots of which is from the same cause as the DH shortage in the mid to late '90s...horrible mismanagement of the drawdown.

We have enough DHs today....but because our promotion system is percentage based we need more folks to stick around so we have the opportunity to make more LCDRS.

Making more LCDRs is a (the?) critical metric in making more Captains...

But if we are only going to promote SWO 0-5's who complete a command ride the logic seems flawed. I keep hearing we are short 0-6's but without more command oportunity I do not see a way out of the 0-6 hole. Maybe I misread the promotion stats.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-24T12:27:58+00:00

lbrty9 wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:27 AM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

How many URL SWO billets could we really fill with LDO's/EDO's/IP's, etc?

On LDO side, not many more than we currently do. There simply arent that many LDOs to go around. Having cracked the books on LDOs I was surprised how many of the four digits codes are managed on a one-by-one basis.

I dont know about EDOs.

The IP thing is interesting. There was an IP who posted here a few months ago about ways to improve the IP community. One of the side discussions brought up that many IPs come to the IP community after having been SWO divos. As such the ability of the IP to fill SWO billets afterward is kinda of hard sell because it would require going back to sea. Not that I have anything against that, but I think the NPS degree they use as an accession start point isnt sufficient to train them to be an IP ready to go back to sea. They need to do a shore side IP job first. And once complete they are now LCDRS which limits their seagoing jobs to being KM on staffs.

The pool of LDO's is drawn down due to lower selection rates and fewer jobs forcing many to retire. If the billets were available, the LDO ranks would grow to fill them, without having to pay bonuses. There are many O3/O4 LDO's filling jobs which aren't in their community already.

Interesting. Then who would fill the jobs they are currently filling?

For example there are ex-STOs in Naval Munitions Command doing the OIC and AOIC thing at the weapons stations. If those LDOs move over to sea jobs who would replace them? Shore installation SWOs? is that the right answer?

Many ANGLICO positions are filled by LDOs. When I asked why I was told that filling it with just line officers was resulting in unacceptable performance. Do we ignore lessons learned and restart another problem to solve the other one?

Lastly when you fill a slot with an LDO instead of a line officers you are distorting the numbers on the line side. Since LDOs do not become COs unless they convert, the experienced gained by that job cannot be applied to being a CO.

Never did see this reply. All of the jobs you cite are within the scope of the 6160 community. The NMC jobs, anglico jobs, and STO jobs are all 6160 jobs. Heck, just converting the Ordo and Weps jobs to put 6160's in them would reduce some of the 1110 shortfall which drives this issue. Problem is that such a thought is anathema to those who view it as an OPA ricebowl, when in reality the needs of the service ought to be the over-arching concern.

The issue at hand is paying 1110's to stay so that there is inventory to fill the senior jobs. I am just saying that you could discontinue the continuation payments, let those that have to be paid to stay, go ahead and punch out. You wind up with a deficit in the 1110 community which could be solved by growing OPA for the LDO community so that the deficit is covered and you don't have to pay folks to fill out the inventory of necessary officers. Yes, it would have to be managed, but the labor pool is available.

I realize that this tickles the subjective angst of 1110 community ownership, but objectively it's a viable option which has never been honestly reviewed.

If that didn't spin you high and right, try this: there is no statutory prohibition which prevents LDO's from commanding at sea...

Enjoy!
_________________
God alone decides the contest; but we must put our shoulders to the wheel.

Admiral D. G. Farragut.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-24T13:51:32+00:00

War Eagle wrote at 24 Jul 2010 08:51 AM GMT:

lbrty9 wrote:

If that didn't spin you high and right, try this: there is no statutory prohibition which prevents LDO's from commanding at sea...

32 C.F.R. � 700.902 Eligibility for command at sea wrote:

� 700.902 Eligibility for command at sea.
All officers of the line of the Navy, including Naval Reserve, on active duty, except those designated for the performance of engineering, aeronautical engineering or special duties, and except those limited duty officers who are not authorized to perform all deck duties afloat, are eligible for command at sea.

I don't know how we determine "authorized to perform all deck duties afloat", but otherwise this seems to fit the bill.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-25T00:20:06+00:00

GatorSailor43 wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:20 PM GMT: [quote="The SWO Star"]

SWODamage wrote:

But no one has come up with the right answer for CGs yet. But the cruisers I have visited all have CDRs as XOs.

Just a dumb gator guy, but why can't the CGs operate under the same paradigm that LHD/LHAs do? (Post-CDR CMD comes in as the XO and then fleets up as the CO.) I've heard a lot of excuses about conflicting personalities but it's working for the big decks.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-25T00:29:12+00:00

capn george wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:29 PM GMT:

War Eagle wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

If that didn't spin you high and right, try this: there is no statutory prohibition which prevents LDO's from commanding at sea...

32 C.F.R. � 700.902 Eligibility for command at sea wrote:

I don't know how we determine "authorized to perform all deck duties afloat", but otherwise this seems to fit the bill.

LDOs were well-represented in command of ASR, ATF, ATS and ARS, back when such ships were commissioned vessels.
_________________
Messmate before shipmate, shipmate before a stranger, stranger before a dog- a sailor's hierarchy

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-25T03:38:14+00:00

lbrty9 wrote at 24 Jul 2010 10:38 PM GMT:

War Eagle wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

If that didn't spin you high and right, try this: there is no statutory prohibition which prevents LDO's from commanding at sea...

32 C.F.R. � 700.902 Eligibility for command at sea wrote:

I don't know how we determine "authorized to perform all deck duties afloat", but otherwise this seems to fit the bill.

Nope, that doesn't do it. Don't believe me, check MILPERSMAN 1210-280. Once authorized to perform all deck duties afloat, LDO's are eligible to command at sea.
_________________
God alone decides the contest; but we must put our shoulders to the wheel.

Admiral D. G. Farragut.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-25T04:55:42+00:00

War Eagle wrote at 24 Jul 2010 11:55 PM GMT:

lbrty9 wrote:

War Eagle wrote:

I don't know how we determine "authorized to perform all deck duties afloat", but otherwise this seems to fit the bill.

Nope, that doesn't do it. Don't believe me, check MILPERSMAN 1210-280. Once authorized to perform all deck duties afloat, LDO's are eligible to command at sea.

Well, that seems to answer my question as to how...but it also points out that URLs control their own destiny. By that I mean, URLs are the COs that would have to "authorizes them to perform all deck duties afloat".

If that never happened, it is all academic and URLs would maintain the maximum number of command at sea billets possible. (Similar to how carriers require an aviator to command, so we never qualify SWOs as aviators.)

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-25T12:07:59+00:00

lbrty9 wrote at 25 Jul 2010 07:07 AM GMT:

War Eagle wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

War Eagle wrote:

I don't know how we determine "authorized to perform all deck duties afloat", but otherwise this seems to fit the bill.

Nope, that doesn't do it. Don't believe me, check MILPERSMAN 1210-280. Once authorized to perform all deck duties afloat, LDO's are eligible to command at sea.

True, I just bring it up as an unexplosred possibility. Alternatively, we can continue paying exorbitant bonuses to keep people in and STILL not have adequate inventory to fill senior billets.
_________________
God alone decides the contest; but we must put our shoulders to the wheel.

Admiral D. G. Farragut.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-25T12:50:34+00:00

seaag1 wrote at 25 Jul 2010 07:50 AM GMT: [quote="GatorSailor43"]

The SWO Star wrote:

SWODamage wrote:

But no one has come up with the right answer for CGs yet. But the cruisers I have visited all have CDRs as XOs.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-26T01:51:19+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:51 PM GMT: [quote="seaag1"]

GatorSailor43 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

SWODamage wrote:

But no one has come up with the right answer for CGs yet. But the cruisers I have visited all have CDRs as XOs.

You are asking several thoughtful questions, but they cant be implemented together. I will try to answer each one separately.

1. Have CGs operate under the same fleet-up model as big deck amphibs. If I am not mistaken on big deck amphibs the CO and the XO are both post O-5 command CAPTS. Part of the reason we went with XO/CO fleet-up for O-5 commands was to free up more post-O-5 command guys for billets ashore. If you have two CAPTs on a CG, one as XO and one as CO you arent helping the shortage of O-6s elsewhere. And if you think about it, even if the XO is still an O-5 about to put on O-6 you are having the same effect.

2. Making the CGs O-5 commands. There are many billets in the Navy (NFC CSO, ESG CSO, OPNAV, USFF, PACFLT) that require that officer to be post-major command. Now post-major command SWOs come from DESRONs or PHIBRONS (around 20 of those), big decks (about 10 of those) and CGs (about 23 of those). If you make CGs O-5 then you cut the number of SWOs who can go through this wicket by more than a third.

3. ADC on the SG staff. What is your definition of a commander? Not the rank but the authority? Putting an O-6 on the carrier will diminish the authority of the commander because his boss is just down the p-way. And if that staff of 12 people really belongs to the SG then you will find that they are soon doing jobs the Admiral wants rather than what the O-6 wants. Trust me on this.

3.A Too many things on the carrier. Think about it from a battle survivalibility point of view. The CSG Admiral, the CAG, and most likely the DESRON are all on the carrier these days. One missile or torpedo in the right place and now you are hurting, even if no one was killed and all that happened was a loss of comms. As a cruiser sailor I tell you that our CSG commander liked having an experienced O-6 who could manage the war (for short periods of time) with a completely independent power supply, hull and comms suite.

3.B Disaggregate operations. You look at Horn or Africa or anti-piracy ops and many times you will see the cruiser charged as being local area command of X ships and X whatever, something best done with an experieneced O-6 and his or her staff. The carrier can be hundreds of miles away doing the businez while a senior commander is onscene operating from his own platform.

3.C Exhaustion and experience factor. O-5 commands can do ADC for X amount of time and can do X warfare commander for X amount of time. But they are not manned or equipped from a console and comms point of view to do it forever or do multiple warfare duties for long periods of time. The O-6 experience factor comes into this. It simply isnt as difficult for the O-6 to do the ship stuff as it is for the O-5 commander because he has done it before. The O-6 and his staff of second tour DHs are more experienced, and that isnt something to be taken lightly. Do you really want a brand new O-5 command to be given the responsibility and expectation right off the bat that we expect from the cruiser COs? I know what the CSG commander would say.

One note I add after a night of thinking about it. When I see a SWO CAPT I would like to think they either are or have been a CAPT at sea. Isnt that where we really belong? Converting the cruisers into O-5 commands means that there are now 23 less CAPTs at sea. I already think that we have too much of a focus on shore side staffs. Lets not further unbalance the equation.
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Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-26T01:52:17+00:00

UNODIR wrote at 25 Jul 2010 08:52 PM GMT: [quote="seaag1"]

GatorSailor43 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

SWODamage wrote:

But no one has come up with the right answer for CGs yet. But the cruisers I have visited all have CDRs as XOs.

We are still short 0-6's so why don't we make the CG's 0-5 Fleet ups? We did it with the FLT 1's. That would make 22 new 0-5 fleet up commands. Should help make more 0-6's if that is what the real goal is. What about the 0-6's? Make them the ADC on the group staff's with 10-12 staff members. Have them assume ISIC responsibilites for the BMD shooters.

Some 0-6's would complain about not having "Major Command" or I will never make flag but I have heard more than my fair share lament "CG's are just another 0-5 ride anyway." Most folks want to be DESRON Commodores to command 0-5's not do the job of one.

I'll ignore the disrespect to the beautiful CGs......this is one officer that if honored by mjr command wants to stay at sea as as CO. BLUF odds are you would likely increase the shortage of O6s and specifically the highly sought out post-major command officers. A lot of officers stay in for an additional post-major shore tour that would otherwise get out as soon as they were eligible to retire as O6s.

Star why won't that work?

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-26T17:01:16+00:00

Spot wrote at 26 Jul 2010 12:01 PM GMT:

Anathema wrote:

...horrible mismanagement of the drawdown.

Does that translate to effective management?
_________________
In any organization there will always be one person who knows what is going on. This person must be fired or otherwise
persuaded to leave.
- Conway's Law

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-26T22:00:15+00:00

warthog wrote at 26 Jul 2010 05:00 PM GMT: Would you favor modifying retirement age to 30 years vice 20?

Or, because all of your time in the Navy is commissioned (assumption on my part), do you see that only you and officers like you are the only ones entitled to retire at 20?

The Navy comisisons at NROTC and OCS because they can't make all their officers at the Naval Academy. The Navy recruits prior enlisted for comisisoning programs because they can't fill the NROTC and Naval Academy billets with kids right out of HS (I'd rather think its because they want the best and the brightest out of the ranks).

I took the CSB three year option (happy to do it) and the Navy got one extra year out of me and through looks for Command as accepting the CSB extened me past 20 years to 21. Just because I joined the Navy before deciding to go to college and join the officer ranks does not make me any less entitled to the same bonuses and retirement elligibility as you. On behalf of all prior enlisted officers who have not piped up. . .

Bite Me!
_________________
"If you ain't laughing, you ain't livin'"
-Carlos Mencia

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-26T22:48:13+00:00

MrSwo wrote at 26 Jul 2010 05:48 PM GMT:

warthog wrote:

The Navy recruits prior enlisted for comisisoning programs because they can't fill the NROTC and Naval Academy billets with kids right out of HS

They have no problem filling those billets with HS kids. They want some priors in so they can have greater diversity in the officer corps (its not always about race and gender).
_________________
Cobra Kai wannabe

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-26T22:54:49+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 26 Jul 2010 05:54 PM GMT:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

How many URL SWO billets could we really fill with LDO's/EDO's/IP's, etc?

I am not spun. What I am is unwilling to distort the senior enlisted ranks by dramatically increasing the demand signal for LDOs. Since every LDO is by definition a first class, chief, senior chief that will not be a chief, senior chief or master chief you are robbing the chiefs mess of the type of leaders they need the most. Talk about a hollow force in the chiefs mess.

LDOs are exceptional. They should be the exception. Take for example my best friend. First class to LDO engineering type. Former MM1. Went MPA on gas turbine, then PC Main OIC, then Maint/Tagout on Kitty, then NAVMAC, then MPA on a big deck amphib.

Told me in no uncertain terms that the big deck amphib principle assistant was the culmination of his career. The reason why he was made an officer. The SWO pin, while cherished, was a means to an end. Not interested or capable of command (his words)

Same thing from every JICO I ever met. They proceed through the small boys to gain the experience to be a SG or Fleet JICO. Thats why we have them. Not to command but to do a job only a LDO can do.

So your idea wouldnt work for two reasons. One it would drain the chiefs mess of any remaining talent. Second it would distort what is a boutique industry, the crafting of LDOs through multiple technical tours to be the deckplate and system managing expert.
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Career & Finance :: Counterpoint (reply)

2010-07-26T23:38:47+00:00

seaag1 wrote at 26 Jul 2010 06:38 PM GMT: [quote="The SWO Star"]

seaag1 wrote:

GatorSailor43 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

SWODamage wrote:

But no one has come up with the right answer for CGs yet. But the cruisers I have visited all have CDRs as XOs.

You are asking several thoughtful questions, but they cant be implemented together. I will try to answer each one separately.

Quote:

1. Have CGs operate under the same fleet-up model as big deck amphibs. If I am not mistaken on big deck amphibs the CO and the XO are both post O-5 command CAPTS. Part of the reason we went with XO/CO fleet-up for O-5 commands was to free up more post-O-5 command guys for billets ashore. If you have two CAPTs on a CG, one as XO and one as CO you arent helping the shortage of O-6s elsewhere. And if you think about it, even if the XO is still an O-5 about to put on O-6 you are having the same effect.

If you make the 0-6's ADCRON Major Command guys you would keep the status quo for 0-6's while making more 0-5 commands. As has been said by pers: " We can't make more 0-5 commands." So make some new 0-6 ones and shift the CG's to 0-5's

Quote:

2. Making the CGs O-5 commands. There are many billets in the Navy (NFC CSO, ESG CSO, OPNAV, USFF, PACFLT) that require that officer to be post-major command. Now post-major command SWOs come from DESRONs or PHIBRONS (around 20 of those), big decks (about 10 of those) and CGs (about 23 of those). If you make CGs O-5 then you cut the number of SWOs who can go through this wicket by more than a third.

But if you make the ADCRON a Major Command this is negated.

Quote:

3. ADC on the SG staff. What is your definition of a commander? Not the rank but the authority? Putting an O-6 on the carrier will diminish the authority of the commander because his boss is just down the p-way. And if that staff of 12 people really belongs to the SG then you will find that they are soon doing jobs the Admiral wants rather than what the O-6 wants. Trust me on this.

So if the DESRON is already in the CVN does that diminish his ability to command? The CAG do they do just what the ADM wants? By the stament you do what you want as an 0-6 vice what the 0-7 wants does not make sense. You are saying the current group of 0-6's are errand boys for the Admiral.

Quote:

3.A Too many things on the carrier. Think about it from a battle survivalibility point of view. The CSG Admiral, the CAG, and most likely the DESRON are all on the carrier these days. One missile or torpedo in the right place and now you are hurting, even if no one was killed and all that happened was a loss of comms. As a cruiser sailor I tell you that our CSG commander liked having an experienced O-6 who could manage the war (for short periods of time) with a completely independent power supply, hull and comms suite.

I am not saying the ADC has to stay on the CVN but if you had a staff that could shift form platform to platform as the ADC would allow some additional flexibility. I think an 0-6 who is not getting 10 calls an hour by the new ENS OOD's is going to make better decisions as the ADC.

Quote:

3.B Disaggregate operations. You look at Horn or Africa or anti-piracy ops and many times you will see the cruiser charged as being local area command of X ships and X whatever, something best done with an experieneced O-6 and his or her staff. The carrier can be hundreds of miles away doing the businez while a senior commander is onscene operating from his own platform.

Agreed.

Not all 0-6's are created equal. You could send the experienced 0-6 to any ship instead of being tied to the CG. This would allow more flexibility for the commander to move from platform to platform. Kind of what admirals used to do before they were tied to the CVN.

Quote:

3.C Exhaustion and experience factor. O-5 commands can do ADC for X amount of time and can do X warfare commander for X amount of time. But they are not manned or equipped from a console and comms point of view to do it forever or do multiple warfare duties for long periods of time. The O-6 experience factor comes into this. It simply isnt as difficult for the O-6 to do the ship stuff as it is for the O-5 commander because he has done it before. The O-6 and his staff of second tour DHs are more experienced, and that isnt something to be taken lightly. Do you really want a brand new O-5 command to be given the responsibility and expectation right off the bat that we expect from the cruiser COs? I know what the CSG commander would say.

I agree with the exaustion factor but if the DDG is not doing the AW staff work or watch standing ( Where the 12 man staff comes in) you can do it as long as the CG. You are right the 0-7 wants an experienced 0-6 there to help with decisons. Would it not be better to have the 0-6 focused on the AW job instead of all the othere stuff that goes with a ship's CO? Oh and there is going to be a DDG with a new 0-5 as the ADC for the very reason's you state disagrigate ops. What is the diffrence if the 0-6 is attached to a specific platform? Give him the abilty to move around the AOR. Right now the CG CO is never gone more than 8 hours during daylight. (Aside the Brits give command over to there XO's on deployment while the CO goes on leave.)
You are right the admiral would expect more from a 0-5 CG CO. But that is why you have the 0-6 ADC.

Quote:

One note I add after a night of thinking about it. When I see a SWO CAPT I would like to think they either are or have been a CAPT at sea. Isnt that where we really belong? Converting the cruisers into O-5 commands means that there are now 23 less CAPTs at sea. I already think that we have too much of a focus on shore side staffs. Lets not further unbalance the equation

.When you see a SWO CAPT do you ask if he was a DESRON or CG CO? Whould you care if he were an ADCRON Commodore? What would be the diffrence? You are right on the shore side staff statement. This would be a great Navy if we did not have all these ships and sailors come to mind.

This is all academic anyway. No one would even dream of bringing this up as an option. 225+ years of tradtion un hampered by progress. Just look at your uniform rants.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-27T02:06:34+00:00

lbrty9 wrote at 26 Jul 2010 09:06 PM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

How many URL SWO billets could we really fill with LDO's/EDO's/IP's, etc?

I have heard the argument before that making LDO's draws down the goat locker, but it just doesn't hold water. We're forcing highly qualified enlisted folks out at the E6 and E7 level as a force shaping move. There is more than enough available talent to retain and flesh out any thinning which would occur if LDO OPA were increased.

Boutique industry bah... The folks you are referring to who had no greater aspirations are not, in my experience, the norm. There are plenty of senior LDO's out there who would gladly jump at the opportunty to take on some of the senior leadership jobs which are closed to us for no good, objective reason.

I'm simply suggesting an option which the 1110's choose to ignore for no reason I've ever been able to understand other than maintenance of the ricebowl.
_________________
God alone decides the contest; but we must put our shoulders to the wheel.

Admiral D. G. Farragut.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-27T12:25:51+00:00

NAVRUN wrote at 27 Jul 2010 07:25 AM GMT: Star - Excellent. Thanks for the post.

[quote="The SWO Star"]

seaag1 wrote:

GatorSailor43 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

SWODamage wrote:

But no one has come up with the right answer for CGs yet. But the cruisers I have visited all have CDRs as XOs.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-27T12:26:50+00:00

NAVRUN wrote at 27 Jul 2010 07:26 AM GMT: Star - Excellent. Thanks for the post.

[quote="The SWO Star"]

seaag1 wrote:

GatorSailor43 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

SWODamage wrote:

But no one has come up with the right answer for CGs yet. But the cruisers I have visited all have CDRs as XOs.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-27T17:13:49+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 27 Jul 2010 12:13 PM GMT:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

How many URL SWO billets could we really fill with LDO's/EDO's/IP's, etc?

Long post is loooong.......

Alright if you dont mind robbing the chiefs mess to double the LDO numbers and you believe that there are technical experts who have done mostly ENG or LINK who now aspire to be generalist COs but are unwilling to convert to 1110 then I am bringing out the big gun.

Age.

I am a straight stick SWO. I got commissioned at 22. I will be reporting to XO when I am 37-38. Yes you heard me right. I will be reporting to XO more than fifteen years since when I was commissioned. I will be 39 when I take command.

What is the average age of an LDO when he or she gets commissioned? 29? 31? The youngest I have seen is 27 and the oldest is about 33.

So now according your plan those people would report to XO between 44 and 48. CO two years later.

I dont know about you but the body tires. The same LDOs I mentioned before where physically unable to continue on sea duty in their final job. The only 30 year LDO I know (fine outstanding gentlemen) needs a respirator to sleep. My best friend (separate guy) not only needs a respirator, he needs $1000 shots every month, has screws the size of walnuts in his spine, and has his hands and feet swell to the size of grapefruits every few weeks. Each one of these is directly connected to his time in the hole.

I am a relatively young 36 and I am starting to have health issues. I could not imagine taking on the strain of XO followed immediately by CO at 44 or 46 or 48. Are there people who could XO and CO at 45? Sure but now you are talking about 45-year-olds who both could and want to. Thats probably not a big enough number to make a difference. If was 45 and I had 25-28 years in and had a choice between staying home with the kiddies and going back to sea, I would most likely punch. Ever year you add increases that chance.

This post is getting long. I have a feeling that you arent going to listen no matter what I say. Fine. You are the one who has to prove to Navy why it would work. Until them those LDOs who want to command, let them convert.
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Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-27T17:35:01+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 27 Jul 2010 12:35 PM GMT: seaag1,

You had some combacks, but what strikes me is that you are stuck on this ADCRON and at the same time rail against shoreside O-6s.

What do you think that ADCRON is going to look like when they arent deployed? Thats right, shore duty.

Do know what a TACRON does? He sits in a shack in Coronado for 18 months and goes home at 1500. And becomes a collection point for ROAD scholars.

Even if the ADCRON is welded to the SG staff, they still will sit sometime in a building, and be disconnected from sea duty whenever their ship isnt underway.

Break

On a personal note as an O-5 DDG CO wannabee I can think of no greater hell than having an O-6 on my ship underway and on deployment and telling my peeps what to do.
_________________
A new life awaits you in the Off-CONUS colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure, new climate, recreational facilities, absolutely free. Lets go to the Colonies! This announcement brought to you by KBR.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-27T18:57:32+00:00

seaag1 wrote at 27 Jul 2010 01:57 PM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

seaag1,

You had some combacks, but what strikes me is that you are stuck on this ADCRON and at the same time rail against shoreside O-6s.

What do you think that ADCRON is going to look like when they arent deployed? Thats right, shore duty.

Do know what a TACRON does? He sits in a shack in Coronado for 18 months and goes home at 1500. And becomes a collection point for ROAD scholars.

Even if the ADCRON is welded to the SG staff, they still will sit sometime in a building, and be disconnected from sea duty whenever their ship isnt underway.

Break

On a personal note as an O-5 DDG CO wannabee I can think of no greater hell than having an O-6 on my ship underway and on deployment and telling my peeps what to do.

I don't disagree with any of what you say. The my original statment was to make more 0-5 CO's so that we could make more 0-6 SWO's. I am not hung up on it, just demonstraing there are options if the endstate is more 0-6's.

As a former XO I do agree the O-6 onboard was EXTREMELY painful but that was not my intention. But you were alos syaing that new O-5 CO's are not as capable and do not have the experience to deal with certain situations. I was pointing out a way to mitigate that with an 0-6 to give advice. Lighten up Bullwinkle.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-27T19:03:15+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 27 Jul 2010 02:03 PM GMT:

seaag1 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

Moose say the best place for an O-6 is on his own ship. Flying squirrel ADCRON never stay in one place long enough to feel pain of current fleet issues.
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A new life awaits you in the Off-CONUS colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure, new climate, recreational facilities, absolutely free. Lets go to the Colonies! This announcement brought to you by KBR.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-28T01:55:07+00:00

lbrty9 wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:55 PM GMT:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

The SWO Star wrote:

lbrty9 wrote:

How many URL SWO billets could we really fill with LDO's/EDO's/IP's, etc?

And getting longer...

No, I'll listen, but...

I am over 30 years of service and have no problem going back to sea. Matter of fact, I am looking forward to it after I finish this tour. Most of my peers are not far behind in age OR longevity, so the age thing isn't a limiter either.

Now I will admit that converting is probably the right thing to do for the ones who are at LT or below. Matter of fact, I tried and was denied by the LDO community manager. I do actively counsel younger LDO's to think about doing it as well.

I'm just offering an alternative to fill the gap that CNP seems to think can be fixed by throwing money at it.

And there is no way to sell this to Navy leadership. While LDO's make up a sizeable percentage of the wardroom, we make up ZERO percent of the flag ranks. There is no sponsorship. I did have an opportunity to discuss opening some flag jobs for LDO's with ADM Roughead and he said he thought it was a great idea and worth looking into, but I suspect it may have just been politeness speaking...

So anyhoo...
_________________
God alone decides the contest; but we must put our shoulders to the wheel.

Admiral D. G. Farragut.

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-28T03:27:44+00:00

Pokerhound wrote at 27 Jul 2010 10:27 PM GMT: SWOStar

Your argument using age doesn't hold water.

What age are 0-6's heading into CMD? at the earliest, 44, likely 46.

There is one on the west coast well over 50 and can out run his LDO's (in CG CMD).

Now...if you had used sea time as an argument I might have bought it.

Going back to watching.
_________________
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.
- Michael Crichton

Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-28T15:06:24+00:00

rushtonj wrote at 28 Jul 2010 10:06 AM GMT: In the civvy world, people in the mid 40s to mid 50s are reckoned to be at thier most competent and skilled level, but the Navy discards most folks at this point, just as they are hitting the height of their capabilities. The Royal Navy keeps mid-level officers around well into their late 50�s (I acknowledge there are other problems with this system, such as slow promotion).

I was 45 when I took command. ("Early Command." Ironic, no?) If I'm lucky enough to screen for Commander Command, I'll be in the neighborhood of 51 when I take command again. I'm pretty sure I'll be good to go.

The truth is that being the XO or CO is much easier on my body than standing TAO was as a DH. The fact that I have no watches and no duty more than compensates for the strain of command.

That being said, if LDOs want to command, they should convert to 1110.

Perhaps we should convert all LDOs to 1110 at the LT level...
_________________
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Career & Finance :: Modifying the SWOCS Bonus (reply)

2010-07-28T15:29:21+00:00

The SWO Star wrote at 28 Jul 2010 10:29 AM GMT:

Pokerhound wrote:

SWOStar

Your argument using age doesn't hold water.

What age are 0-6's heading into CMD? at the earliest, 44, likely 46.

There is one on the west coast well over 50 and can out run his LDO's (in CG CMD).

Now...if you had used sea time as an argument I might have bought it.

Going back to watching.

Your second to last sentence is key. I am talking about LDOs who have put 10-15 in plus the 15 it takes to get to XO/CO fleet-up.

Break

Remember those O-6s CGs CO are returning to command. No XO, little learning curve, and what a 18 month tour? In addition you bring up an additional point I hadnt thought of. An LDO going to CG command wouldnt be in their mid to late forties, they would be in their mid to late fifties. This doesnt answer your original question, but it goes a ways to answering lbrty9's thought about why there are no LDO admirals. I personally think that an LDO admiral would be a good idea, but to follow the divo-divo-shore duty-DH-DH-shore duty-shore duty-XO-command-staff duty-major command-staff duty-staff duty-path an 1110 follows would leave them with about 2-4 years left before they hit 60. Like or not we select Flag Officers for what they are going to be 4-8 years down the road. I dont think that LDO admiral would go beyond 1-star, which unfortunately in some peoples minds means they shouldnt be made a Flag at all. But if it were to happen an LDO admiral path would probably look a lot more like an EDO path than a SWO path.
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A new life awaits you in the Off-CONUS colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure, new climate, recreational facilities, absolutely free. Lets go to the Colonies! This announcement brought to you by KBR.

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T00:11:16+00:00

fo2swo wrote at 23 Jul 2010 07:11 PM GMT: Ok, where do the #s fall out now?? what was it for last year??... need to know when i will be having the wetting down...

btw; all Mafia members, i propose reserving HOOTERS for our shindig!
_________________
If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with success unexpected in common hours.
Henry David Thoreau

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T02:03:14+00:00

Sailor Bob wrote at 23 Jul 2010 09:03 PM GMT:

Code:

RATUZYUW RUWDHLP0001 2491810-UUUU--RHORBES.
ZNR UUUUU ZUI RHHMMCA4520 2591822
R 240428Z JUL 10 PSN 662944Q31
FM COMNAVBOBCOM //N00BOB//
TO ALBOBNAV
ALBOBPAC
ALBOBLANT
ALL SHOREACTS SAN DIEGO AREA
ALL SHIPS PRESENT SAN DIEGO CA
INFO COMNAVBOBCOM
CCSB 12
COMSTRKFORTRABOBPAC
COMDESBOBRON 12
ALL BOBPAC AFLOAT TRAINING
BT
UNCLAS //N03502//
MSGID/GENADMIN/CNBC//
SUBJ/FY-11 LIEUTENANT COMMANDER FROCKING POLICY//
REF/A/MSG/SECNAV/ALNAV 050-10//
AMPN/FY-11 ACTIVE-DUTY NAVY LIEUTENANT COMMANDER LINE SELECTIONS//
RMKS/1. AVATAR FROCKING IS AUTHORIZED ON SAILORBOB.COM.
2. FROCKEES SHOULD BUY BOB A BEER.
3. IF YOU FOUND OUT YOU MADE O-4 ON SB.COM THEN MAKE THAT SIX BEERS.//

_________________
Way hay and up she rises
patent blocks o' diff'rent sizes
Way hay and up she rises
Earl-eye in the morning

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T02:49:13+00:00

Pokerhound wrote at 23 Jul 2010 09:49 PM GMT:

Sailor Bob wrote:

Code:

Beer on me after I am done with duty
Thanks Bob!
_________________
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.
- Michael Crichton

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T03:00:56+00:00

Anathema wrote at 23 Jul 2010 10:00 PM GMT:

fo2swo wrote:

Ok, where do the #s fall out now?? what was it for last year??... need to know when i will be having the wetting down...

btw; all Mafia members, i propose reserving HOOTERS for our shindig!

If you go to the NPC website the Officer Promotions section will have the board statistics for this board, as well as last years.
_________________
[b:1d9642cc59](NOUO)[/b:1d9642cc59] This post is classified Non Official Use Only.

So then, should anyone have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T04:21:49+00:00

SWOJO wrote at 23 Jul 2010 11:21 PM GMT:

fo2swo wrote:

need to know when i will be having the wetting down...

Based on this it should be close to what's below. Lineal numbers less than the number listed will promote that month

OCT 0045
NOV 0091
DEC 0136
JAN 0182
FEB 0228
MAR 0273
APR 0319
MAY 0365
JUN 0502
JUL 0639
AUG 0776
SEP 0913

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T10:55:09+00:00

NewtonSWO wrote at 24 Jul 2010 05:55 AM GMT:

SWOJO wrote:

This is HILARIOUS! Mrs. NewtonSWO predicted that you'd figure this all out. BTW, you USNA guys kill me...we were commissioned within a week of each other and you outrank me by almost 350?
BT BT
Any former LCDRs that feel generous, I'm gladly accepting hand-me-down shoulder boards, collar devices, etc. (yes, I'm a cheap SOB).
_________________
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity!

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T12:20:05+00:00

longhornblackshoe wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:20 AM GMT: Congrats to all! Lots of great names on there. Congrats to all the folks from PCO Class 250!

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T12:51:26+00:00

JayhawkNavy02 wrote at 24 Jul 2010 07:51 AM GMT: Congrats to anyone from DH Class 204 who put it on. Buy a bottle of scotch and nice cigar with the extra cash!
_________________
The SWO Formerly known as "Seahawk02"

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-24T15:41:26+00:00

Bilgediver wrote at 24 Jul 2010 10:41 AM GMT:

NewtonSWO wrote:

SWOJO wrote:

CONGRATS, man!
-Bilgediver
_________________
Don't turn over a smokin' turd!

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-25T03:19:19+00:00

Mustang LT wrote at 24 Jul 2010 10:19 PM GMT: To all ...congrats.

To Dave Preuss...."I told ya so!!! You JACKASS!!!!" Congrats brother!! Now wasn't that line shaft bearing lesson worth laying in seeping oil???

For any....I have a few devices that I'd part with make your case and send along an address....we are currently "ON THE ROAD" living in a 5th wheel heading to BC for a family reunion....THEN? Parts unk. Still w/i the lower 48 tho. Happy to "Pass it on....once again"!!!!

VB....BG....this beard shit IS COOL!!!!
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Career & Finance :: Reserve O4 board results (reply)

2010-07-27T03:24:58+00:00

AwhhhDP wrote at 26 Jul 2010 10:24 PM GMT: Does anyone know when the Reserve O4 board results will come out? The FTS out there are on that list...

Career & Finance :: Aviation promotion percentages (reply)

2010-07-27T03:27:34+00:00

Ender19 wrote at 26 Jul 2010 10:27 PM GMT: Any idea why the Aviation percentages were so low? I was surprised to see that 1310s had a 4% drop and NFOs had a 10% drop from the previous board. Most communities showed a drop, but 4% and 10% were marked compared to the other communities.

I know more than a few guys that were pretty sad this weekend.

I was thinking overmanning, and I saw an article in Navy Times pointing out that the Navy was fat with Aviators. However, they also closed the door on lateral transfers recently. Why would you close the door to keep people from escaping and then shoot the crowd? It isn't adding up...anyone want to educate me?

Career & Finance :: Re: Aviation promotion percentages (reply)

2010-07-27T06:12:51+00:00

SWO Bubba wrote at 27 Jul 2010 01:12 AM GMT:

Ender19 wrote:

Any idea why the Aviation percentages were so low? I was surprised to see that 1310s had a 4% drop and NFOs had a 10% drop from the previous board. Most communities showed a drop, but 4% and 10% were marked compared to the other communities.

I know more than a few guys that were pretty sad this weekend.

I was thinking overmanning, and I saw an article in Navy Times pointing out that the Navy was fat with Aviators. However, they also closed the door on lateral transfers recently. Why would you close the door to keep people from escaping and then shoot the crowd? It isn't adding up...anyone want to educate me?

Remember, stat boards follow community admin boards. If aviation DH selection #s are down then statutory boards will also dip.

As for overall manning, the aviators need a certain number of pilots overall, so community managers will throttle lat/xfers and accessions to help meet the overall the requirements. This manning exercise is independent from stat and admin boards.
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Career & Finance :: Re: Reserve O4 board results (reply)

2010-07-27T13:23:47+00:00

bubblehead wrote at 27 Jul 2010 08:23 AM GMT:

AwhhhDP wrote:

Does anyone know when the Reserve O4 board results will come out? The FTS out there are on that list...

Still with SECNAV

Code:

FY11 RESERVE FTS O-4 LINE

DATE IN DATE OUT LOCATION
Select Message Released
Secretary of Defense
10 Jul 10 Secretary of the Navy
29 Jun 10 09 Jul 10 Judge Advocate General
19 May 10 28 Jun 10 Chief of Naval Personnel
27 Apr 10 30 Apr 10 Board Convened/Adjourned

Career & Finance :: Re: Reserve O4 board results (reply)

2010-07-27T22:12:52+00:00

AwhhhDP wrote at 27 Jul 2010 05:12 PM GMT:

bubblehead wrote:

AwhhhDP wrote:

Does anyone know when the Reserve O4 board results will come out? The FTS out there are on that list...

Still with SECNAV

Code:

@bubblehead: I have seen this, I just don't rely too much on it because it gets update weeks after the fact. I'm surprised that the selectee list was not released with the active list.

Career & Finance :: FY11 LCDR Line Board (reply)

2010-07-28T02:09:21+00:00

SWO_MM wrote at 27 Jul 2010 09:09 PM GMT: The SECNAV update was posted about 10 days late.

Career & Finance :: "New" spouse retirement bennies

2010-07-27T16:36:19+00:00

Javelina wrote at 27 Jul 2010 11:36 AM GMT: Okay - not married or getting married in the near term at all, thank you very much but this did come up in discussion with a couple of shipmates as we were discussing being a Sailor with bennies. I've snooped around the web and haven't found the exact eligibility info I was looking for.

Q: If a Sailor got married in the year or two before retirement - does that new spouse get the same lifelong retiree medical bennies after they retire (as long as they remain married)? This is independent of SBP bennies (after the member kicks over).

Q2: What if a retiree gets divorced and remarries (while retired). Is that new spouse able to latch on to the members TRICARE medical benefits (family care)?

I saw a thread early on Sailors with benefits but didn't think it focused on just before or during retirement.

Thanks for the assist brothers and sisters of SB.com!

v/r Jav
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The ULTIMATE SWO Motto: We the willing, following the unknowing are doing the impossible. We have done so much for so long with so little that we are now able to do anything with nothing!

Career & Finance :: "New" spouse retirement bennies (reply)

2010-07-27T18:05:12+00:00

Barnacle wrote at 27 Jul 2010 01:05 PM GMT: I am not sure about question 1 but Q2 is a definite no.

Some information here:
http://www.military.com/benefits/legal-matters/usfpa-overview

Career & Finance :: "New" spouse retirement bennies (reply)

2010-07-27T18:35:10+00:00

navmacs wrote at 27 Jul 2010 01:35 PM GMT:

Barnacle wrote:

I am not sure about question 1 but Q2 is a definite no.

Some information here:
http://www.military.com/benefits/legal-matters/usfpa-overview

Are you sure about that? According to the TRICARE website,

Quote:

Retired service members of the uniformed services and their family members (spouses and children) are eligible for TRICARE.

I can't find anything on the website that says the parties have to have been married at the time of retirement for the spouse to be eligible, but there's plenty of guidance on how retirees can add new family members, including spouses. The FORMER spouse may or may not maintain some eligibility (depending on a number of factors), but everything I've found indicates that the new spouse will definitely be covered.

Career & Finance :: "New" spouse retirement bennies (reply)

2010-07-27T18:48:14+00:00

Angryman wrote at 27 Jul 2010 01:48 PM GMT:

Barnacle wrote:

I am not sure about question 1 but Q2 is a definite no.

Some information here:
http://www.military.com/benefits/legal-matters/usfpa-overview

USFSPA only addresses the FORMER spouse, not a new spouse for the retired member after they have retired. Q2 is far from a definite no. I won't go so far as to say that they are absolutely covered, but it's worth checking with your servicing tricare office.

Career & Finance :: "New" spouse retirement bennies (reply)

2010-07-27T19:18:30+00:00

Javelina wrote at 27 Jul 2010 02:18 PM GMT:

Angryman wrote:

Barnacle wrote:

I am not sure about question 1 but Q2 is a definite no.

Some information here:
http://www.military.com/benefits/legal-matters/usfpa-overview

...but why when I have sailorbob.com????

Actually, the "servicing" tricare office is 55miles away in Fairfield and since I don't have a personal need to head up there, figured I'd ask.

Concur about the former spouse stuff and USFSPA....worked out all the details with my ex.
_________________
The ULTIMATE SWO Motto: We the willing, following the unknowing are doing the impossible. We have done so much for so long with so little that we are now able to do anything with nothing!

Career & Finance :: "New" spouse retirement bennies (reply)

2010-07-27T20:00:22+00:00

Angryman wrote at 27 Jul 2010 03:00 PM GMT:

Javelina wrote:

Angryman wrote:

Barnacle wrote:

I am not sure about question 1 but Q2 is a definite no.

Some information here:
http://www.military.com/benefits/legal-matters/usfpa-overview

I figured that being the CO at your leftist institution (no offense to your billet, just the school) would put you a good distance from a servicing office. The reason that I suggested it is that they can certainly give better advice than us......although all of us seem to believe that we're experts in everything, which in the wrong situation and with the wrong advice, can get you in a bit of a pinch.

BT

I could see no reason why they wouldn't have coverage. Say that a retiree had a child following retirement.....would the child not be entitled to Tricare due to being born after the date of retirement? I would suspect that the DEERS enrollment of the new spouse would be a simple admin matter.

PERS-41 Detailer Shop :: The What's what of Flag Aides

2010-07-28T17:41:39+00:00

Pearly wrote at 28 Jul 2010 12:41 PM GMT: So I am looking through the Flag Aide billets just following along so I can apply for one when I go to leave NPS. And I sit there and look and the different jobs titles: I see Protocol, Flag LT, and Flag Aide. I guess that Protocol work for the Protocol officer and has fun doing all things offical for the Flag. And from the sheet it seems that The difference between a Flag Aide and Flag LT is where the command is considered afloat or ashore. But what real are the jobs? I know "get the coffee" and "carry my bags", but in reality, when going though the life of a Flag LT/Aide, what are some of the daily task? Would love to hear them...
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